02-07-1972 - Regular Meeting - MinutesMINUTES OF THE JOINT MEETING
CITY COUNCIL and RECREATION & PARKS COMMISSION
FEBRUARY 7, 1972.
• The joint meeting of the City Council and the Recreation & Parks
Commission was called to order at 4:40 P.M., by Mayor Pro Tem
Robert Young in the West Covina Council Chambers. The Pledge of
Allegiance was led by Mayor Pro Tem Young; and the invocation was
given by Councilman Russ Nichols.
ROLL CALL
Present: Mayor Pro Tem Young; Councilmen: Shearer,
Nichols, Young, Lloyd
Mayor Ken Chappell (Arrived at 4:55 P.M.)
Chairman Plesko; Commissioners: Bemoll, Petta,
Wilson
Absent: Commissioner Sooter
Others Present: George Aiassa, City Manager
H. R. Fast, Ass't. City Manager
George Zimmerman, City Engineer
Norm Stevens, Director of Rec. & Pks. Dept.,
Tom Yamate, Ass't. Director of Rec. & Pks. Dept.
Barry Konier, Park Superintendent
Lela Preston, City Clerk
Alec Andrus, Administrative Analyst
WEST COVINA SYMPHONY Mayor Pro tem Young:
ORCHESTRA & SOCIETY
West Covina Symphony Orchestra and Society. Is
be made by staff on this item?
The first item on
the agenda for joint
discussion is the
there a presentation to
Mr. Aiassa: This was an item the Council wanted to discuss
with the Commission. You will be. going into
the 1972-173 budget program shortly and at the
time we allocated funds last year we said we would evaluate it
at this time as to whether or not the program was to be continued
with City subsidy or self-sustaining.
Mayor Pro tem Young: Is there someone present conversed with the
Symphony Orchestra that can give us,a summary
of it, including dollars and cents?
(Mr. Stevens asked Mr. Yamate to briefly summarize the present status
of the Symphony Orchestra.)
Mr. Yamate: There are two areas of financial responsibility;
one is the monies appropriated by the City to
the Symphony Orchestra for salary and equipment.
At the present time the status of salary and equipment is in good
order but I cannot speak with specific authority on the financial
. status of the Society - the Booster Group of the Symphony Orchestra.
I don't have their financial records available to me at this time.
The last report I was cognizant of they were in good order.
As far as participation in the orchestra there
are about 35 to 50 active members, depending on the concert season.
And as far as public parti-cipation at the Pop Concerts, etc., I
believe the show of people has been between three hundred and five
hundred./
Councilman Lloyd: Do you have any idea as to the actual total
CITY COUNCIL & Rec. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72
Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra
Page Two
participation in the program? I am talking about the person that
actually picks up the horn and plays?
Mr. Yamate: Between 35 and 50 muscians. By nature, the
muscians will participate more as concerts
• get closer and in great number. Many of these
muscians play for other organizations during the music season.
Councilman Lloyd: In other words most of these people are just
more than casual amateurs?
Mr. Yamate: The approximate number of muscians of
a professional nature are ten to fifteen and
that is where your fluctuation arises.
Councilman Lloyd: Let's try and reduce it to the economics for a
moment. Dollar for dollar participation, one
by one person participation. Do you have any
idea of what it costs us on that basis as compared to some other
recreational activity?
Mr. Yamate: I don't believe I am prepared to answer that
just off the top of my head.
Councilman Lloyd: What is the reaction of staff in regards to
this program? Do they want it to be an
ongoing program? Are they satisfied that we
are getting our monies worth out of it? Do you -have that kind of
participation?
Mr. Yamate: It depends on what your comparisons are. If
you are comparing it with a playground
production which is a massive program, I
would say "no", but on the other hand it is not in the same nature
as many of the programs conducted by the Recreation and Parks
Department. I cannot speak myself for the Department, Mr. Stevens
speaks for the Department as far as the worthiness of this particular
activity, or as it relates moneywise or participationwise with the
rest of the activities of the Department.
Councilman Lloyd: Well I don't care - caucus if you want to,,
what I am really asking is does the Department
want it to continue - is the money there -
is the involvement there?
Mr. Yamate: In listening to the nod from Mr. Stevens
I would say "yes".
Councilman Lloyd: Okay, that is really one of the things we
want to talk about. In view of the fact the
man that ran the program is leaving and no
longer participating in this program. I understand he is going to
continue to participate in the Covina Band program - is that correct?
Mr. Yamate: As far as we know - yes.
Councilman Lloyd: Do we have a new director to carry this
forward?
Mr. Yamate: We do have a new director for the rest of this
fiscal year, a Mr. Robert Green.
Mr. Aiassa: Mr. Green's contract will be presented to the
City Council on February 14th - you are getting
it in your mail on Friday.
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Three
Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra
Councilman Lloyd: He is going to carry the Symphony Orchestra
through its presentation at Laguna?
Mr. Yamate : Yes.
• Councilman Lloyd: As a matter of fact for the Council's informa-
tion they carried that information on K.FWB
today - that the West Covina Symphony
Orchestra was going to participate. So evidently they are getting
some coverage on it. My reaction, if you people are prepared to
spend the money and favorably disposed toward it, then it must be
a pretty good program. It is giving the community identification, so
it can't be all bad. I am really for it.
Mayor Pro tem Young: This being a joint meeting I hope the
Commission members feel free to dive right in
with comments.
Chairman Plesko: I would like to say that I think at the present
time we are more or less morally and financially
obligated to this program in that it was
instituted through the Recreation and Parks Department and I believe
the original thinking was that we would sustain them until such time
as they became self-sustaining. I think the last approach with the
Society was if the director could be paid by the City then they would
make an all out effort to take care of the rest of their expenses.
And I believe they have been working towards that goal.
Councilman Nichols: Chairman Plesko is such a long term contributor
to the community and has done so many things
for the City that I am always a little bit
tremulous at taking what might appear to be an issue with even one
bit of the comments she makes because she is a pretty unselfish
person and has analyzed these matters in terms of what she feels is
in the interests of the community.
My recollection of the original contact with
the City was that we would attempt to provide a subsidy for the Sym-
phony ..group not, untll.- su-dh*tim.e as they might become self-sustaining,
because that could be ad infinitum - forever - but for some reasonable
period, hopefully a year or two or three, until they could indicate
the capability of becoming self-supporting. I think the Council
expressed its philosophy and I think the Council since then has
expressed its philosophy because of our very great financial stringency
here in the City we are not at all capable of providing ongoing
subsidies to the various worthwhile cultural efforts that exist in the
community. If we convey here today that something needs to be
considered worthwhile to achieve an ongoing subsidy we will probably be
encouraging a trend that we would prefer not to encourage.
When the Symphony Society was.fuhded initially
I believe the City took the position we would give it some help, that
the City would be seed corn for the Society. I think this implies
the Symphony Society itself should in someway during its formative
period indicate a commitment to buildlif only gradually�an ongoing
. degree of support at large. If this were not true then everytime
the City Council gave support to some worthy activity it would in
fact be making a commitment of public funds that would be ongoing
and in the cumulative sense overbearing. I think the really great
issue before us on this matter is - has the Symphony Society seen
any indication during its initial period of creating the kind of
impetus that would gradually cause it to become independent of City
neuturing and fatherhood? We haven't had anything presented to
us here one way or the other that would tell us those things and
I comment to the Council the thought this is the essential ingredient
of the ongoing support of the City Council? Is this a group, no
matter how worthy, that has some capability or potential of one day
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS..COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Four
Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra
taking over and maintaining its own support? If we see no signs
whatsoever over these first one and a half years then I think we
should give very serious consideration to the conditions of
granting any more funds. If -::you. c.arlt :see any sign at all that these
• efforts have been forthcoming and that private sector support has
been gradually increasing then I don't think we should be at all
precipitous in cutting it off and denying support.
(Mayor Chappell arrived at 4:55 P.M.)
Finally I think that each step of the way
where we as a Council extend support to the private sector in this
manner it should be contingent upon some,: sign that the support is a
lessening support and not a greater support.
So I wonder if perhaps Mr. Yamate, speaking
for the rather fluid executive leadership, could give us some
indication of the financial structure, if the Council could get a
sign that this support has been increasing that might in fact be
helpful to us in making a tentative decision here today.
Councilman Shearer: I hope I am not speaking out of place, but I
think expecting Mr. Yamate to respond to
Councilman Nichols' question might be a little
bit too much to ask. I don't believe he is a member of the Board.
If you are prepared to answer shake your head "yes" and I will shut
up right now. He is nodding "no" so I will continue. Mr. Yamate is
not a member of the Board and I am disappointed that a member of
the Board is not here - for whatever reason - whether he wasn't
advised or what. I don't think without a presentation from the Board
that we can really come to a conclusion as to whether or not the
Symphony Orchestra is any better off today then it was a year ago.
If I were to venture a guess I would say it is not, looking at the
list of patrons published it appeared to be less than a year ago.
I don't think we should expect Mr. Yamate to give us a good report
on the financial status of the orchestra. I would hope if we want to
pursue this that in the near future prior to the 1972-173 budget
sessions that a member of the Board does come before us.
The idea I had with regard to this agenda item
had to do with the contract with Mr. Green, which was before the
Council at a meeting recently, and at that time I raised the question
as to whether it was appropriate that we have a contract directly
between the City and Mr. Green or whether it,should be between the
City and the West Covina Symphony Orchestra. I am still of the
opinion if we have a contract it should be with the orchestra and
not Mr. Green which sort of ties us in with him - an individual -
and not the organization. As far as I am concerned,unless we have a
legal situation here, if we are to continue any type of support to
the Orchestra it should be to the Board and not any direct relation-
ship between us and the conductor or any one individual. Let the
Board administer the funds whether it comes from the City, patrons,
ticket sales or whatever,in their best judgment® and whether it be
for salaries or music or instruments or transportation or what.
Leave it up to them to spend ;their funds accordingly.
. Councilman Nichols: I was just going to say that I hope you
didn't misunderstand my motivation in
discussing primarily the contract and the
renewal of city funds. I think if a contract were offered to
somebody that involved the termination 4 or 5 months later that his
consideration of that offer might be somewhat different than if he
had reason to believe that it might be a continuing arrangement.
I think overriding the particular contract being issued to the
individual is the basic status of the Board and its relationship
to the Council and I thought someone must at this early date begin
throwing that out and causing all of us on the Commission and the
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Five
Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra
Council to give consideration to the fact that we are preparing
to issue a contract to someone and possibly no one has said to him
this is possibly going to be the end of the road. I think he
should be alerted almost immediately that he will have some
questions to answer to the Council for the organization, that this
involves more than the waving of a baton, that this involves
the original commitment made to Council to raise money to fund
this thing when this first director stood before us and said my
great function here is to raise the money to make this group
independent. So when we wipe that away and go to a new man and
issue a contract to him I think we should do that in isolation of
these previous understandings and agreements and then come to him in
June and say - sorry buddy you haven't.done.:the job, we are wiping
out the whole show - this would not really be putting the whole
package together as it needs to be put.
My thrust was only in that area/although I am
aware that the action being requested is a contract alone, but it
certainly is mitigated and swayed by these other factors.
Chairman Plesko: I have a point of information which you
gentlemen may not be aware of. Commissioner
Wilson and myself met with the Symphony
Orchestra Board about a month ago and we emphasized the fact that
we were really depending on them to get out and dig up some money
to help the orchestra out. Our suggestion was that they form a
Speaker's Bureau, which they have done. In talking with the
President a few days ago they are prepared now to go out into the
community and speak before every civic organization in West Covina.
I think this will do' very much to educate the public regarding the
orchestra. Every PTA president has agreed to have a member of the
Board come before their organization and speak for 5 minutes. So I
think this is an encouraging omen.
Councilman Lloyd: Mrs. Plesko, pursuing your comment on that,
what is the reaction of your Commission to
the orchestra? Are you favorably disposed?
Chairman Plesko: We are certainly in favor of the orchestra
and the Society and have certainly done our
bit to give them our moral support. We did
meet with them and more or less tried to tell them it is up to you
to get off your foot and do something.
Councilman Lloyd: Are you, as a Commission, prepared to
recommend the expenditure of the funds by
the City and the proposal of this individual
as a recreation activity in West Covina?
Chairman Plesko: No, in fact we had asked our Director to place
this item on our February agenda and at that
time I believe we will all be able to discuss
it and come up with a firm recommendation. Right now we are not
prepared to make a statement one way or the other, because we have
not discussed it on the Commission level.
. Mayor Chappell: Are there further comments on this item?
Councilman Young: One thing. The present status of the
gentleman to be confirmed by the Council,
is that he is only to be the interim
director for this fiscal year, to finish the contract Mr. King has
resigned from?
Mr. Yamate: The communication from our Department to the
Director/Conductor at this time is that as
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Six
Re. W. C. Symphony Orchestra
of June 30, 1972, we have no guarantee of any further commitments
to a Director/Conductor as far as the City of West Covina is
concerned. Meaning that precipitive on the actions of the City
Council there may not be any monies available for the continuance
• of the orchestra as it relates to the current status. This has
been made clear to him, he understands it, he accepts it and is
happy to (To it and what ramifications are to him after June 30th is
unbeknown to us at the present time.
Councilman Young: I think we have had good input here from the
Council to the Commission to Mr. Yamate
which will go to the orchestra. Summarizing it for the Mayor;
generally the feeling is that there is a moral --obligation for the
current year and there is a desire to see fulfilled the initial
expectation of the orchestra to be self-sustaining, whether this
would be a matter of .2 or 3 years, but we would like to see some
progress. No one here is prepared to say whether or not there is
progress being made just at this time but we will expect some
reports along this line at a later time. With that I will turn the
meeting over to you, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chappell(: Yes, I think the Commission in studying
their budget will have some ideas on this.
I have watched the Symphony Orchestra and
I have seen it growing a little bit. I enjoyed the music. I don't
know what the history of performance is in an orchestra like this
in making its own way, but I do see a lot of woxJL_-b_eing done and in
my opinion I would like to see it continued on for at least another
year, but that will be up to various recommendations that we get.
Councilman Shearer: Mr. Mayor - I would like to reiterate one
thing that I said. I don't recall the
date but I have it here in my notes -
sometime back there was a presentation here, possibly on the 25th
of January last year, at which time Mr. Nordstrom was here and he
made a financial presentation. At that time the financial
presentation was.a bit confusing because there was an attempt made
to differentiate between certain kinds of funds, and things got
rather complex and I made the statement then and I will repeat it
that at such time the Orchestra comes to us again with a financial
statement, speaking for myself alone, I will insist on a complete
financial statement and not an attempt to show only that portion
spent that comes out of the City treasury. I don't care where it
comes from, out of whose pocket, but I am interested in the overall
administration of the Orchestra funds. So if that information could
be passed on to whoever will be making the presentation it might be
of help.
Chairman Plesko: Mr. Mayor, it would be very helpful to us
when we study this question at our February
meeting to know exactly what you would like
for us to take under consideration. I gather it would be the
contract and whether it be with the director or the Society, and
just how much longer the City should consider sustaining this
Orchestra. Are there any other points?
Councilman Shearer: I think the point Councilman Lloyd was
getting at - city resident participation
versus how many city dollars are going into
it. We talk about 35 to 50 muscians, are these West Covina? Are
they from out of town? If we are having a city recreation activity
that is one thing, or are we attempting to have a professional
type orchestra to present concerts? We have two different ballgames
here, one a recreational activity and the other a professional group.
I think my attitude might be different depending on what the
results would show.
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS..COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Seven
Re. W. C. Symphony Orchestra
Mayor Chappell: So you would want a roll call on where the
muscians come from as to location?
Councilman Shearer: Right. Are we supporting the East San Gabriel
Valley, L. A. County, Southern California, or
• the City of West Covina, or what? I know
some of the muscians are professional and are paid and I would like
to know something in that regard. Whether tiis is a get together
and having a good time set-up, or a get together and make some
money set-up.
Councilman Young: Along that line one point that came up last
year was the fact that we learned quite by
accident the West Covina Schools also
participated apparently in this same organization in some fashion -
dual rehearsals and all - and I am sure Councilman Shearer has that
in his mind in desiring a full report as to where the money comes
from, how it is spent and what are we doing? And secondly, I spent
the weekend at Stockton with a lot of music people from West Covina
High School and Cameron Elementary School and among them was the
music Director of Cameron School, John Hoover, and we talked about
the All City Band he put together last year in a matter of 2 or 3
weeks. He had over a 100 youngsters (as I recall) participating
from West Covina Schools, they marched in the Fourth of July Parade,
they got uniforms from the Azusa High School and in order to get
the uniforms for that particular use he had to agree to catalog
and inventory all the uniforms at the Azusa High School and he got
2 hours a day pay, I think, from the West Covina School District,
for doing all this. I may be messed up on some of my details but I
am not far off. In any event it seemed like a real worthwhile
activity - over a 100 kids were whipped into shape and marched in a
parade, and he has bigger dreams; and it seems like there is a
built-in demand for the involving of youth and music, and what it
would take to put a Band Shell in Cameron Park so it would play
right into our house at 11 o'clock at night - I don't know - but I
think this deserves some serious consideration and the possibility
of some co-ordination with the School District. Certainly an
activity like this should be continued. He has thoughts for weekly
concerts in the summertime and the like and has demonstrated the
ability to do it and that the interest is there.
Councilman Shearer:
We would probably get that for half of what
we are paying for one concert a year by the
Symphony Orchestra.
Councilman Nichols:
If you can put the dreams and the hormones
together you can get a great deal done.
Chairman Plesko:
That would be considered a West Covina
School District Band and not the West Covina
City Band - right?
Councilman Young:
It was called the "All City Band" last year
and the kids were all city kids and the
barriers'bbtween.'.the..S.chool District and the
City had been eroded
for example by the Symphony Orchestra itself.
• I think they could come
all the way down and be totally eliminated
in the field of recreation because it is certainly a_common interest
and common responsibility
and there are certain facilities that can
be exchanged and are.
This ought to be encouraged. It might merge
with the West Covina
School District - Mr. Lloyd..
Councilman Lloyd:
Well that can't be all bad. I hadn't thought_
of it, we might work on it.
Mayor Chappell:
That is not all bad. Is there anything else
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS.: COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Eight
RE. W. C. Symphony Orchestra
else on the Symphony Orchestra? I do want to apologize for being
late, I started to deliver a policy nearer to the deadline than I
expected to/ and also sold another policy. Normally I don't
mix my business with the responsibilities of the City.
• FINANCING PARK Mayor Chappell: Chairman Plesko, would
IMPROVEMENTS you like to present this
item.
Chairman Plesko: At your request the Recreation and Parks
Commission and staff has studied the practi-
cdbi'lity. of placing a recreation bond
issue on the April municipal ballot and each of you have in front
of you a packet which we will go through. First of all, we are
talking about capital improvement monies for our parks. At the present
time we do not have one totally developed park in the City of West
Covina. In addition we have a brand new park in Woodside Village
which has been graded and that is all. So when we are talking about
a bond issue we are talking roughly about one and a half to two
million bond. This figures does not represent additional personnel
or equipment which would be needed if passed. Secondly, in checking
with other communities who have had unsuccessful bond elections
we find we would need at least a year to plan, promote and sell to
the voting public the need for such an election. Even then there is
no indication anywhere around that we would be successful.
To place this issue on the April ballot, in
our opinion, would only stir up much emotion which would not be fair
to our Department, it would not give us time to do a halfway decent
job of promoting it. Even holding a special election a year from
now leaves us cold as the climate for bond issues, whether it be
for schools or park issues, does not seem to be right. School issues
have been overwhelmingly defeated all around us, even in West Covina.
We have made a very special effort to try and find alternate means
of financing, such as:
1 - We have looked into the Community
Service Tax. This is a tax levied by the School District. We
invited John Eastman, Assistant Superintendent of Finance to speak
to the Commission on this subject. In some areas this fund is used
quite actively for recreation and parks, but not in West Covina.
There used to be an agreement between the two governing bodies that
called for a 4(,' tax on $100. assessed values but this was discontinued
in 1965.
2 - We looked into Federal Grants. We met
with a representative of HUD to try and determine what monies where
available for park development and beautification. After taking
a tour of our fair City with the representative we got the feeling
that our looks were deceiving. It was very difficult trying to
prove to the representative that even though we looked good we are
indeed not so well off. With Federal Grants in all cases we would
have to have matching funds. So that seems to be out.
We also met with the representative from the
Mayor's office, City of Los Angeles. He gave us insight into many
Federal Grants and also mentioned the possibility of contacting the
Army Core of Engineers for any heavy.duty work that we might have
to have done. Immediately we thought of oua new Maverick Field on
Azusa. The engineers will do this for a community service project,
gratis, of course, and at the same time they are giving their
engineers on the job training. So this was something we were not
aware of.
We also asked our Director to make a survey
of 50 cities comparable in size to our City, to try and determine
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Nine
Re. FINANCING PARK IMPROVEMENTS
the different types of financing used for recreation and parks.
The results of the survey are in the package which we will get to
shortly.
• We are certainly cognizant of the fact that
the City Council has no easy problem when budget time arrives and
you are confronted with so many departments which need so much and
the many priorities which face you. In our recent studies we have
not been able to come up with a sure fire way of financing and
in view of this the Recreation and Parks Commission has made the
following recommendation: "Motion was made by Commissioner Sooter and
seconded by Commissioner Bemoll that the Recreation and Parks
Commission recommend to the City Council that we not attempt a
bond issue at this time due to the following reasons: (a) Municipal
elections are not the opportune time for such an issue. A special
election would be more ideal; (b) Due to the nature of the economy
at the present time; (c) due to the high taxes at this particular
time; and (d) that the Commission took a sample poll and the feeling
seems to be negative at this time and the community is not receptive
at this particular time." That motion was unanimously carried.
If you would like we can go through some of the information in the
packet or you can ask us questions.
Mayor Chappell: Why don't you briefly brush through the
packet and then we can ask questions.
(Chairman Plesko briefly summarized the written material given to
the Council.)
Chairman Plesko: We asked staff to come up with some things
that really need to be done in our City and
you will find the Recreation & Parks staff
recommendations listed, some of the things that if we didn't go for
a bond we would certainly want included in improvements throughout
the parks. It comes to a grand total of $1,573,000, which does not
include the Nature Center at Galster Park or the shopping center
play areas.. No figures are available there.
The minutes of the Recreation and Parks
Commission meeting of November 2nd and this is where we really
sat down and studied the nitty-gritty. We looked at the Master
Plans of oui parks, all have been approved so far except Cortez Park,
and some of the things we feel are in priority are counted in there.
We have the minutes of our Recreation and
Parks Commission adjourned meeting of November 17 regarding the bond
issue and this is the time that each of the Commissioner's pointed
out their reasons for not wanting to go bond this year.
The last item, which is very interesting, is
the survey which our Director took care of for us. In writing to
the 50 cities he asked: Does your City levy a park tax? Do you
intend having a park tax? The rate? What reasons determined
this rate and what other funds for capital improvements? Out of 50
questionnaires mailed he received 37 back, and we found that 16 of
• the cities have a park tax; 21 have no park tax, although one does
contemplate having one very soon. And the reasons are noted here.
So that just about covers it.
Councilman Young: Chairman Plesko, is there more or less
inherent or running through the unwritten
lines of your report and your material that
the feeling of the Commission is that our really only feasible
approach to improving our parks and keeping pace with needed
capital improvements must be through a special park tax? Can we
accept that?
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CITY COUNCIL and REC® & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Ten
Re. Financing Park Improvements
Chairman Plesko: Yes, I think you can. The consensus of the
five Commissioners is that is about the only
way to go.
Councilman Young: Do you have any thoughts on how we can sell
• it? We have a municipal election right now but
I don't believe any of the ten or twelve
candidates would care to make that an issue?
Chairman Plesko: I doubt it but possibly before you consider
your next budget - if the Recreation and Parks
Commission could be of any help in selling it
to the community I think all of us would be more than happy to do so.
At least give you some moral support.
i
Mayor Chappell: In that area you were talking of some Federal
funds of a matching type, just throwing it out
on the table could it be as small as $100,000
a year type situation or do you have to have your plans and build it
all in one year? Or do they allot you a lump sum and you do with it
what you can? Are you that far along in that study?
Chairman Plesko: We are not that far along. However, I believe
Mr. Stevens might have some answers.
Mr. Stevens: I think the main involvement is the fact
if you have plans drawn it would be
advantageous. If you do not then you have to
go through this process. The money then is allocated according to
the project. I worked in a City where we wanted to go urban
beautification in which we not only worked on the development of a
park but the planting of street trees, beautification of median
strips and all these other f acturs. So we encompassed it all into
one government grant request. You expend the monies 100/ and then
the government reimburses you 50% after it is expended. This is what
we found out generally in these grants. You put out 100% and then
they reimburse you later on and this is the other problem,
Mayor Chappell: That makes for a real hang up.
Mr. Stevens: It does.
Councilman Young: Cities don't have borrowing capacity except
through bonds?
Mr. Aiassa: The only borrowing capacity we have is the
general obligation bonds, revenue bonds and
Federal Grants. And Mr. Stevens has pretty
well outlined the procedure of the Federal Grants, There must be
positive assurance that you are going to complete the project and
then they evaluate the project before you receive the money and this
is a little binding.
Councilman Young: We need kind of a Muncipal Diner's Club Card
for this type of project. It sounds a
. little silly but it might be quite practical.
We might advise our congressional legislators of the program.
Councilman Shearer: Maybe you have something there - call it
"Young's Folly."
Mayor Chappell: In your research how deep have you gone in
the Federal funding situation? In looking at
the School District they have a man that
spends almost his full-time working for things like this and I
remember back that this is not unusual, most large School Districts
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Eleven
Re. Financing Park Improvements
have such a situation.. Are you the one doing that in our City,
Mr. Stevens, looking for this type of situation?
M'r. Stevens: Yes pertaining to parks and recreation I am
more or less pursuing this.
Mayor Chappell: And where .are they aiming their money -
primarily, beautification of roads like Azusa?
Mr. Stevens: The underprivileged. The representative that
came from HUD asked what the social economic
level was around the particular areas
involved - what the minority population was around the area - that
seemed to be the great impetus. There were three priorities set up
and we thought we were suitable for number 2 and 3, but we did not
have the minority factor in our favor. The individual said - fine
you can submit your application but number 1 priority would be for
those groups that are a minority group and are underprivileged. If
X amount of dollars were available they said we would be so low on
the totem pole that it would be just motion work for us. In fact
we went with another staff member to pursue this further and met
with a young lady representative of HUD and she reiterated the same
facts - there didn't seem to be anything in our favor.
We pursued it with the State, under the Land
and Water Conservation program, the same problem there. They are
more or less looking for the underprivileged because they feel they
are the ones that are not getting all the programming f acilities
that they need. So this is their Number 1 priority.
Mr. Aiassa: You are also facing a serious problem that the
amount of projects put forth by the various
cities that have the underprivileged defini-
tions are so great in comparison to the amount of money allocated
that they don't even have enough money to take care of the critical
areas that they feel in their mind meets the criteria set forth.
So if we do and are successful it would only be a satellite
situation somewhere such as a regional park that might have a far
reaching program. This is what Mr. Stevens is pointing out - you
make the application, spend time and money and get the paperwork
done but when it comes to the actual money getting you are
limited. Some areas in other cities are badly in need of just
play areas for recreation which we would not even be able to
qualify.
Councilman Lloyd:
simply because we are
depressed so there are
Mr. Stevens:
Councilman Lloyd:
Mr. Stevens:
Councilman Lloyd:
minority population or
that count.
I take it then through the recommendation of
the Commission and the staff, that there is
just no point in pursuing it any further
not a minority group or not economically
no programs available to us at this time.
That is correct. We particularly researched
the Legacy of Parks that Mr. Nixon particu-
larly advocated and we are not eligible in
that requirement.
Because of lack of a minority situation and
because of not being low on the family income
situation?
Yes sir.
In other words the growth
dynamics of urbanization
factor so long as you do
a below average income.
factor and the
are really not a
not have a
Those are the things
CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Twelve
RE. Financing Park Improvements
Mr. Stevens: Those are the things emphasized within
this Act.
Councilman Lloyd: I find it rather difficult that all of a
• sudden we are emphasizing a minority
situation, economic is understandable, but
I feel that there is a certain amount of defranchisement if
based strictly on a racial approach. And if that is what it is
then we would be less than honest not to accept it and not expend
funds to try and achieve something which is unachievable.
Councilman Shearer: I have a question, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Stevens,
in the summary of your report, the
inquiries to various cities, I notice in a
number of cases, for instance I read the City of El Monte says
yes they have a park tax - 18(,4. The next column determines this
rate and the answer in that column is maintenance of the park system.
I take it from that that even though the City of E1 Monte has an 18(,4
park tax it is not ear marked for capital improvements. Is that
correct?
Mr. Stevens: Yes sir.
Councilman Shearer: Well then really we are not so far out of
step in summarizing and saying that 16
cities have a park tax and in looking through
I would circle at least 8 or 9 that use it in parks for operational
purposes, so in that sense West Covina has a park tax but not so
specified. If we would equate the budget of the Recreation and Parks
to a tax rate and say this is a park tax we would also have a park
tax. The point I am getting at is even though there were sixteen
cities with a park tax that doesn't mean that the sixteen cities
have earmarked their funds for capital improvement. El Monte is
one, Downey another states to support departmental operations, even
one is to supplement the General Fund. So those sixteen cities are
not allocating this all to capital improvements.
Councilman Lloyd: I think it is a very good point. In other
words what he is saying and I agree whole-
heartedly, it doesn't make any difference
how you allocate itrthe thing that counts is how much money are you
actually putting in. Now if it comes out of the General Fund are
you spending $100,000 or are you spending $100,000 as a result of
a 10 or 15(,' park tax - it doesn't make any difference. Are they
allocating in El Monte any of the funds out of the General Fund to
this over and above the 18(,?
Mr. Stevens: Yes they are.
Councilman Lloyd: In other words they have a regular park and
recreation allocation out of the General
Fund - do you know what the amounts are?
Mr. Stevens: No, I didn't pursue that any further.
• Councilman Lloyd: That would be rather interesting to find
out just what these two things add up to. In
other words are we so far off on our
expenditures as to be out of line - I think that is what we are
really asking.
Mayor Chappell: I think one thing in that area is the fact
that cities like El Monte and San Gabriel
have not really had the population growth
we have known for:.:the past ten or fifteen years. Basically they
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PK. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Thirteen
Re. Financing Park "Improvements
are maintaining something they have had for many years. We are
looking at bare lands and have attempted through the years to
develop bare land with no funds. So you can't compare those two
situations. They apparently are not looking for capital outlay in
their parks, they have their land developed and all they are
interested in is maintaining it, where we have to not only maintain
it and keep it up but we have to look for funds to develop and bring
them up to what we call a park. I think that is where our big
hang up is. If these things had all been taken care of throughout
the last 50 years we/ would be in better shape but we haven't had
that advantage.
Commissioner Petta: I would like to point out in the last two
comments of the Councilmen to clarify one
point, it wasn't the intention of the
Commission or the staff to point out that the City was away out
as far as what they were spending by not having a park tax, or
recommending that we go to a park tax. We felt by going to a
park tax it was a way to get some of our capital improvements.
Councilman Lloyd: I don't think it is unrealistic though.
You have every right to make that
recommendation if you feel that way, I
don't find any fault with that. I might say we can't afford a
tax now, or we shouldn't be involved in that, but I certainly would
hope that you and the staff, if you honestly believe in a project,
would come forward and say it is worthy of putting a tax on, or
worthy of more money out of the roughly six million dollars spent
in the City of West Covina. If you think there should be more
money spent here, well then maybe that is where it should go,
maybe it is more important that it go into a park or recreation,
or whatever, than where we are putting it. If you feel that way,
say it.
Councilman Young: I think these figures from the other cities
are interesting. I think they are perhaps
forceful to a very limited extent because
what we are dealing with is what we recognize as a need in
West Covina. The need for expansion of certain parks, land
acquisition and the need for the expansion of the activities we
can offer which involves capital improvements and capital outlay.
So we do have some comparison here but we have to deal with
West Covina. I believe in reading this material if we could get
a'bond issue passed we would have to pay off the bonds and there is
no way that this particular program can be self-sustaining, not like
a swimming pool, for example, which has a better chance because we
charge admission, but not_a park, some activities could but some
could not, so we are still looking and encouraging a tax to pay the
bonds back. We would have to tack on 10 or 15<, or whatever
additional tax it would take.
Mr. Stevens: Plus the addition of personnel and equipment
for maintenance.
• Councilman Young: That is the ongoing expense item as opposed
to the capital outlay item. That is the
package we have to look at. The issue " we
face is whether or not we could dothe needed expansion in a short
period of time and pay for it over the long pull, or with the same
tax as we nbuld pass and not bring on a total revolt in our City.
If it would be better to do it that way and then gradually build
up our program from year to year. This is the issue we have to come
to grips with and either way it is going to require a lot of
salesmanship to the entire City of West Covina. Maybe we could
do a bond issue in a year's time if we appropriately presented it
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
.JOINT MEETING 2/7/72 Page Fourteen
Re. Financing Park Improvements
and if -we let it be presented we can end'up with a mandate that
would say "no we don't want money spent on parks." So we come
out the same way anyhow. If we get thrown out of office in 2 years
or 4 years - as the case may be (2 months Jim says) and that tax is
gone and the capital improvement is gone. So I submit this for your
consideration as to which way we go. .
Mayor Chappell: Is there anything further on this item?
Councilman Shearer: One more comment. I think this all started
because of a statement I made a few months
back saying that I was calling for a bond
issue. I wasn't calling for a bond issue, only a discussion of the
pros and cons and apparently, at least as far as the Commission is
concerned, the cons outnumber the pros. The irony of it is I had
in mind a bond issue to pay off what would be roughly equivalent
to a 10� park tax and the practicality is that :it would probably
be defeated but we can turn right around and establish a 10(,' park
tax and that can be accepted. I heard a number of favorable
compliments on that, but the same people will say "no" to a bond
issue and in reality you would get a lot more out of a bond issue
because you can build it now with today's dollars but they would
shout "no" on that, although it is costing the same out of pocket.
So I guess you take the easy way out and forget the bond issue
and consider the extra park tax, if and when we get a recommendation
from the Commission. Perhaps that shows some of the gullibility of
us humans. A million and a half looks much bigger than a park tax
of 10(�.
Mayor Chappell: Well that is where we have to start figuring
on how to make that sale, explaining to them
that it is going to be the same either way
but we have our cake now and we will pay for it as we go along.
Councilman Young: It is good democratic philosophy.
Mayor Chappell: I just changed my mind.
Chairman Plesko: I was going to say since I have been in
West Covina - about 16 years - we have had
three bond issues in Recreation and Parks
and they have all been failures and we have no encouraging note to
go forward on.
Mayor Chappell: That is right and we have to keep that in
the back of our minds.
PAVILION AND Mayor Chappell: Chairman Plesko -
RECREATION CENTER/ may we hear from you
CORTEZ PARK on this subject.
Chairman Plesko: Mr. Mayor, this kind of
took me by surprise and
I am really not prepared to handle it.
• Councilman Lloyd: I don't think you should be, I think we
should get it down to the culprits who
caused the problem, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Chappell: Alright, Councilman Lloyd.
Councilman Lloyd: I am the person who has talked about it
and I know Mr. Shearer has also talked about
it and we have not necessarily been in total
agreement on it. However, one of the major things we lacked in this
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Fifteen
Re. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park
community and I say this in acceptance of the problems that have
been presented in regards to funding. Let's start right out and
say you are not going to get a bond issue at this point. I agree
eventually it can be done but right now it won't. What I am
• really discussing at the present moment is in the areas of
priorities and the are& of philosophy. Mr. Chappell brought up an
extremely fine point when he said that certain communities which
have some antiquity, at least greater than that of West Covina,
at least with the population that is currently residing here
vis-a-vis E1 Monte, Pasadena, Pomona, etc., that we are really
behind the 8-ball because we have grown too fast to acquire those
vestments of facilities in our own society that will allow us to
serve the community in the manner everyone of us wants to do. So
we come down to the point that we are going to have to realign
some of the priorities we have. Not the least of which is we have
to arbitrarily say in the monies that we are spending in the area
of park and recreation - do we want it to go to recreation which is
people oriented, or do we want it to go to parks?
As indicated, there are cities that do not
have to make this distinction but unfortunately this is one of the
problems foisted upon us and I would like to have a realignment
of the attitudes ' and the thinking of the people to see if we have
to serve the people first and get to the parks second. We have
gone into a Wilderness Park for good or for evil, and I have heard
many comments both pro and con on it, we spent a lot of money
there. I don't know what the utilization factor is on -an individual
basis. Someday if you get a chance Mr. Stevens you might indicate
that. And the same thing is true of all of our parks - which we
decry at the present moment as not being satisfactory to serve .this
society.
Now I am asking you - not only are we going
to accept these weaknesses but what I am really saying is let's
reorient and go for some sort of a pavilion. I spoke to the City
Manager possibly three or four years ago originally about the
possibility of building some sort of a pavilion, a pavilion which
could be used as a "small convention center" which would be the
focal point of recreational activities, whether it is folk dancing,
basketball, badminton and it could further be used for major
sporting events with some crowd seating capacaity and I use the
figure of five thousand spectators. Where we could bring in the
leagues, volleyball leagues, and college leagues, etc., and in
addition and in conjunction with . an earning basis. We could
provide a small capability for a small convention. We have some
hotels and things here and one of the problems is they can handle
probably five hundred people but..not a whole convention center
such as in downtown Los Angers, San Francisco, etc., and as such
I thought we might be able to`"pay for the facility through this
type of thing, so it is not a constant drain on the taxes we already
have.
We have only so many dollars in the pot and
I am saying perhaps we should consider shifting some of the
• dollars towards an earning situation. I think Mr. Shearer feels
somewhat along this line. We need a facility which identifies with
the City of West Covina. It can be done as a headquarters thing,
even in the areas we are working with so very well already such as
the Little League, Pop Warner and this type of activity, which
unfortunately stops right at the point where we should be continuing.
I have already vocalized my thoughts along
those lines about the participation of people in the age groups of
30 - 40 and 50 - that we do not have activities for these people.
I think we should review our priorities and I am commending to
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Sixteen
Re. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park
both Council and the Recreation & Parks Commission and certainly to
staff that we should consider the building of a building which will
adequately house this type of activity. In other words I am not
putting the forum out of business or intimating that thing should
• be done, but there is no adequate facility for any of the cities in
the East San Gabriel Valley and I think this is an opportunity for
West Covina to participate.
For instance, a typical example is the
Covina Basketball Christmas Tournament. I don't know how many
people attend but I do know some of the finest teams in.the Nation
participate in a gymnasium which I am ashamed to admit was built
as a highschool gym. I was fortunate enough as a youngster to
have the use of a gymnasium that puts to shame anything you have
seen around here and that really doesn't speak well for our society.
I don't think we have done very well in.this area. I don't think I
can rectify it, however, I think we have an obligation to consider
this. It may just be straws in the wind. I have talked to members
of staff about this and some other individuals - I think we might
just pay attention and maybe realign some of our priorities for
achievement. I see this as a far more involvement than the
building of a waterfall at Cortez Park. I suggested Cortez Park
but let me say that with reservations, I am not married to Cortez
Park on the thing. There was some talk of the possibility of
acquiring additional lands in there and if it were achieved then
we might be in a position to utilize that facility which is
natural to this type of involvement.
Mayor Chappell: It is a point I thought of for quite a long
time, in fact when the Carousel was torn down
this was a point._I had in mind. A facility of
this type would adopt itself very nicely to what we have been talking
about in the way of Senior Citizen groups. I have talked to friends
who have parents that belong to the Senior Citizen group and we
have a real need for this type of thing, but then you get back to
that other side and you are talking about costs that even a 10(,, park
tax carried over a three year period wouldn't even raise that kind
of money, so we get back to a bond issue and the fact that the
success of bond issues - well you feel like you are chasing your tail
around and around. I have always looked around in our community
for some citizen who would like to have a building like that named
after him. I have often thought if I had money that is one of the
things I would like to do with it, but I haven't been able to
convince anyone that has the money that is the place to go.
We have people in our community who maybe we could start approaching
on that idea of a will type of thing or even having it named after
them. Mr. Galster started it in our community with the beautiful
parksite itself and then it was improved and when you talk about
what parks cost today it was not a lot of money, a lot more money
than any of us have certainly. I think this is the area we have
to approach, I think there are people in our area like that.
Chairman Plesko: Similar to the way the Music Center was
built in Los Angeles. Public subscriptions,
a foundation was formed, etc., and maybe
that is the answer.
Councilman Young: I would commend to ,.the attention of the
Council the Center that exists in Culuer City,
California, which does tend to be somewhat like the Center you
referred to, Mr. Lloyd. You can have basketball games there and
accommodate a pretty good crowd, and you can have plays and
operas .and band concerts, etc., and accommodate good crowds. You
can have weddings and receptions there, swim meets and if you are
of the Senior Citizen category you can,have special rooms reserved.
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Seventeen
Re. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park
It is one center operated by one man and a staff and it is busy and
I understand a money maker within limits. It is certainly not a
burden on Culver City. The pressure I have gotten and I haven't
had a chance to talk to Jim but I think his ideas are very well
taken and would certainly tie in with the'desires of many people
in this town to have a Civic Auditorium, which in my opinion is a
very high priority item. But an auditorium can be a very flexible
place if it is properly designed and the traditional auditorium
isn't. Like this one we are sitting in.
Mayor Chappell: Do you know how they built that? Did
somebody donate the funds to start it or
what?
Councilman Young: I don't know but we could find out. The
Director of it was a very good friend of
Bob Gingrich's and I know him. I would be
happy to accompany you on that.
Councilman Shearer: I agree with the concept that Councilman Lloyd
presented. I think it is a fine idea, a lot of
ideas are fine and I wish we could implement
all of the ideas. I fail to see though how we could raise such a
large institution by re-establishing priorities. I don't think there
is enough flexibility within the City's expenditures to even'over a
period of 10 or 15 years perhaps to come up with the money. I
think we are back into a bond issue. Perhaps, Jim, was talking
about re-establishing our priorities in the manner of thinking and
planning rather than the priorities of spending existing income.
If that is the case then I will agree 100%.
Councilman Lloyd: That is it precisely. I am sorry I wasn't
very specific. We have talked about many
things in this City and we talked about an
auditorium and I reviewed in my mind and I am certainly no expert in
the area of auditoriums but we need a center and certainly
traditional_ auditoriums are always a burden. They do not produce
for themselves even as evidenced in our own community by what went
on at the Carousel Theatre. And I don't say that therefore means
everything will fail, but I think we need to have a broader base
than just a theatrical presentation and that is really what I am
proposing. One of the things that would indicate to us that the
people in West Covina are really willing to put effort forward in
this area is that all of these schools, all of the people that
participate in the area of Little League, Pop Warner, the ice
skating hockey team, etc., these people put in a horrendous amount
of time and energy and they all have one common gripe - there is
no really - to quote "adequate facility" and when.it gets right
down to one youngster and one parent they are willing to do a great
deal more than they would for a traditional auditorium where Susie
may or may not dance. But if Johnny or Susie are going to
participate in some recreational activity, whether it is Little
League or whatever it may be, they then put more effort forward
and I think we can anticipate a greater impetus and a greater
interest and effort on the part of the people in West Covina and
the people surrounding us. The people in LaPuente, Walnut,
Baldwin Park or Covina - no one around us has an adequate facility
of this type.
One of the reasons I thought of it was
when I worked for NBC one of the problems I had was to try and
find a gymnasium that was even geographically located sufficiently
well to transmit a good TV signal and we ended up with South Hills
which is an atrocious gym but it was used because it could transmit
that signal. And that is one of the considerations if you go into
that type thing, just to give you an idea of the interest. that is
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CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Eighteen
RE. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park
generated outside of our own community because they too are
interested in the youngsters that play basketball - in this case,
or any other activity of that type.
Mayor Chappell: Do any of the Commissioners have any comments
on this particular subject? At least you
are getting some sort of a feel on it and
not a hopeless one but it is not the brightest feel you could
receive, I am sure.
Commissioner Bemoll: Mr. Mayor, I would like to respond. I have
lived in this area for quite a few years and
as I think back and as our school systems
have been developed and our communities have grown, particularly in
regards to the school systems, our gymnasiums were built on
bonded money through the State, and through the State aid program
we went through it was impossible to build the type of Center
Pavilion Councilman Lloyd refers to.. If we go beyond that and
think of a larger auditorium/convention center and pavilion we have
to think in terms of a bonded program and most of the communities
have been real reluctant to ask the taxpayers to go into a
regional center which this would probably be.
My thought would be on a regional basis
to go through the County. The County does develop sport centers
conceivably on a county level and we could think in terms of
participating in that type of a program and set up a regional
center that would take care of these activities he expounded to.
Mayor Chappell: Yes, but the area they are doing that in
is sort of unpopular right now.
Commissioner Bemoll: We: have the Puddingstone Dam Area right
over here and they are going to put a
million more dollars in that area. When
you think of one community providing this center and it is going
to be used by the area - the`E ast San Gabriel Valley - well
single communities are reluctant to provide that facility with
taxpayers money, but on a regional basis it is feasible.
Mayor Chappell: Very good point. Is there anything else
or any other items to be brought up?
SENIOR CITIZEN Mr. Aiassa: One item of interest to both
GROUP the Commission and the
Council. We have had a
strong interest in a Senior Citizen program and we would like to
have an indication from the Council authorizing me and my staff
to contact these people and come forth with some sort of a
recommendation to the Recreation and Parks people to evaluate,
and at the same time we would like to work with what is called
the "Young Adults". Mr. Stevens and I have talked about this
and we have also met with the Senior Citizen Groups and we would
like to have them meet and talk with the Recreation and Parks
Commission at their next meeting.
• Mayor Chappell:
Mr. Aiassa:
because of the time
Do you want a motion for that, Mr. Aiassa?
Well we would like to receive a little
feeling from the Council that you are
interested and want us to pursue it
and efforts that will need to be expended.
Motion by Councilman Lloyd that the City Council authorize the
staff to meet and speak with the people in the Senior Citizens
Group and the Young Adults Group, and that reports be given to the
CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM.
JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Nineteen
RE. Senior Citizen & Young Adult Groups
Commission and the Council.
Seconded by Councilman Shearer.
Mayor Chappell: I certainly think we are all very much in
favor of that, Mr. Aiassa. Are there any
" other comments?
Motion carried.
Mayor Chappell: Is there anything else? Chairman Plesko
do your Commissioners have anything?
Chairman Plesko: I would like to ask our Commissioners to
stay after your adjournment, we have one
item to discuss.
ADJOURNMENT Motion by Councilman Young, seconded by
Councilman Lloyd and carried, to adjourn
joint meeting at 6:07 P.M.
APPROVED:
MAYOR
ATTEST:
City Clerk
•
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