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02-07-1972 - Regular Meeting - MinutesMINUTES OF THE JOINT MEETING CITY COUNCIL and RECREATION & PARKS COMMISSION FEBRUARY 7, 1972. • The joint meeting of the City Council and the Recreation & Parks Commission was called to order at 4:40 P.M., by Mayor Pro Tem Robert Young in the West Covina Council Chambers. The Pledge of Allegiance was led by Mayor Pro Tem Young; and the invocation was given by Councilman Russ Nichols. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Pro Tem Young; Councilmen: Shearer, Nichols, Young, Lloyd Mayor Ken Chappell (Arrived at 4:55 P.M.) Chairman Plesko; Commissioners: Bemoll, Petta, Wilson Absent: Commissioner Sooter Others Present: George Aiassa, City Manager H. R. Fast, Ass't. City Manager George Zimmerman, City Engineer Norm Stevens, Director of Rec. & Pks. Dept., Tom Yamate, Ass't. Director of Rec. & Pks. Dept. Barry Konier, Park Superintendent Lela Preston, City Clerk Alec Andrus, Administrative Analyst WEST COVINA SYMPHONY Mayor Pro tem Young: ORCHESTRA & SOCIETY West Covina Symphony Orchestra and Society. Is be made by staff on this item? The first item on the agenda for joint discussion is the there a presentation to Mr. Aiassa: This was an item the Council wanted to discuss with the Commission. You will be. going into the 1972-173 budget program shortly and at the time we allocated funds last year we said we would evaluate it at this time as to whether or not the program was to be continued with City subsidy or self-sustaining. Mayor Pro tem Young: Is there someone present conversed with the Symphony Orchestra that can give us,a summary of it, including dollars and cents? (Mr. Stevens asked Mr. Yamate to briefly summarize the present status of the Symphony Orchestra.) Mr. Yamate: There are two areas of financial responsibility; one is the monies appropriated by the City to the Symphony Orchestra for salary and equipment. At the present time the status of salary and equipment is in good order but I cannot speak with specific authority on the financial . status of the Society - the Booster Group of the Symphony Orchestra. I don't have their financial records available to me at this time. The last report I was cognizant of they were in good order. As far as participation in the orchestra there are about 35 to 50 active members, depending on the concert season. And as far as public parti-cipation at the Pop Concerts, etc., I believe the show of people has been between three hundred and five hundred./ Councilman Lloyd: Do you have any idea as to the actual total CITY COUNCIL & Rec. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra Page Two participation in the program? I am talking about the person that actually picks up the horn and plays? Mr. Yamate: Between 35 and 50 muscians. By nature, the muscians will participate more as concerts • get closer and in great number. Many of these muscians play for other organizations during the music season. Councilman Lloyd: In other words most of these people are just more than casual amateurs? Mr. Yamate: The approximate number of muscians of a professional nature are ten to fifteen and that is where your fluctuation arises. Councilman Lloyd: Let's try and reduce it to the economics for a moment. Dollar for dollar participation, one by one person participation. Do you have any idea of what it costs us on that basis as compared to some other recreational activity? Mr. Yamate: I don't believe I am prepared to answer that just off the top of my head. Councilman Lloyd: What is the reaction of staff in regards to this program? Do they want it to be an ongoing program? Are they satisfied that we are getting our monies worth out of it? Do you -have that kind of participation? Mr. Yamate: It depends on what your comparisons are. If you are comparing it with a playground production which is a massive program, I would say "no", but on the other hand it is not in the same nature as many of the programs conducted by the Recreation and Parks Department. I cannot speak myself for the Department, Mr. Stevens speaks for the Department as far as the worthiness of this particular activity, or as it relates moneywise or participationwise with the rest of the activities of the Department. Councilman Lloyd: Well I don't care - caucus if you want to,, what I am really asking is does the Department want it to continue - is the money there - is the involvement there? Mr. Yamate: In listening to the nod from Mr. Stevens I would say "yes". Councilman Lloyd: Okay, that is really one of the things we want to talk about. In view of the fact the man that ran the program is leaving and no longer participating in this program. I understand he is going to continue to participate in the Covina Band program - is that correct? Mr. Yamate: As far as we know - yes. Councilman Lloyd: Do we have a new director to carry this forward? Mr. Yamate: We do have a new director for the rest of this fiscal year, a Mr. Robert Green. Mr. Aiassa: Mr. Green's contract will be presented to the City Council on February 14th - you are getting it in your mail on Friday. - 2 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Three Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra Councilman Lloyd: He is going to carry the Symphony Orchestra through its presentation at Laguna? Mr. Yamate : Yes. • Councilman Lloyd: As a matter of fact for the Council's informa- tion they carried that information on K.FWB today - that the West Covina Symphony Orchestra was going to participate. So evidently they are getting some coverage on it. My reaction, if you people are prepared to spend the money and favorably disposed toward it, then it must be a pretty good program. It is giving the community identification, so it can't be all bad. I am really for it. Mayor Pro tem Young: This being a joint meeting I hope the Commission members feel free to dive right in with comments. Chairman Plesko: I would like to say that I think at the present time we are more or less morally and financially obligated to this program in that it was instituted through the Recreation and Parks Department and I believe the original thinking was that we would sustain them until such time as they became self-sustaining. I think the last approach with the Society was if the director could be paid by the City then they would make an all out effort to take care of the rest of their expenses. And I believe they have been working towards that goal. Councilman Nichols: Chairman Plesko is such a long term contributor to the community and has done so many things for the City that I am always a little bit tremulous at taking what might appear to be an issue with even one bit of the comments she makes because she is a pretty unselfish person and has analyzed these matters in terms of what she feels is in the interests of the community. My recollection of the original contact with the City was that we would attempt to provide a subsidy for the Sym- phony ..group not, untll.- su-dh*tim.e as they might become self-sustaining, because that could be ad infinitum - forever - but for some reasonable period, hopefully a year or two or three, until they could indicate the capability of becoming self-supporting. I think the Council expressed its philosophy and I think the Council since then has expressed its philosophy because of our very great financial stringency here in the City we are not at all capable of providing ongoing subsidies to the various worthwhile cultural efforts that exist in the community. If we convey here today that something needs to be considered worthwhile to achieve an ongoing subsidy we will probably be encouraging a trend that we would prefer not to encourage. When the Symphony Society was.fuhded initially I believe the City took the position we would give it some help, that the City would be seed corn for the Society. I think this implies the Symphony Society itself should in someway during its formative period indicate a commitment to buildlif only gradually�an ongoing . degree of support at large. If this were not true then everytime the City Council gave support to some worthy activity it would in fact be making a commitment of public funds that would be ongoing and in the cumulative sense overbearing. I think the really great issue before us on this matter is - has the Symphony Society seen any indication during its initial period of creating the kind of impetus that would gradually cause it to become independent of City neuturing and fatherhood? We haven't had anything presented to us here one way or the other that would tell us those things and I comment to the Council the thought this is the essential ingredient of the ongoing support of the City Council? Is this a group, no matter how worthy, that has some capability or potential of one day - 3 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS..COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Four Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra taking over and maintaining its own support? If we see no signs whatsoever over these first one and a half years then I think we should give very serious consideration to the conditions of granting any more funds. If -::you. c.arlt :see any sign at all that these • efforts have been forthcoming and that private sector support has been gradually increasing then I don't think we should be at all precipitous in cutting it off and denying support. (Mayor Chappell arrived at 4:55 P.M.) Finally I think that each step of the way where we as a Council extend support to the private sector in this manner it should be contingent upon some,: sign that the support is a lessening support and not a greater support. So I wonder if perhaps Mr. Yamate, speaking for the rather fluid executive leadership, could give us some indication of the financial structure, if the Council could get a sign that this support has been increasing that might in fact be helpful to us in making a tentative decision here today. Councilman Shearer: I hope I am not speaking out of place, but I think expecting Mr. Yamate to respond to Councilman Nichols' question might be a little bit too much to ask. I don't believe he is a member of the Board. If you are prepared to answer shake your head "yes" and I will shut up right now. He is nodding "no" so I will continue. Mr. Yamate is not a member of the Board and I am disappointed that a member of the Board is not here - for whatever reason - whether he wasn't advised or what. I don't think without a presentation from the Board that we can really come to a conclusion as to whether or not the Symphony Orchestra is any better off today then it was a year ago. If I were to venture a guess I would say it is not, looking at the list of patrons published it appeared to be less than a year ago. I don't think we should expect Mr. Yamate to give us a good report on the financial status of the orchestra. I would hope if we want to pursue this that in the near future prior to the 1972-173 budget sessions that a member of the Board does come before us. The idea I had with regard to this agenda item had to do with the contract with Mr. Green, which was before the Council at a meeting recently, and at that time I raised the question as to whether it was appropriate that we have a contract directly between the City and Mr. Green or whether it,should be between the City and the West Covina Symphony Orchestra. I am still of the opinion if we have a contract it should be with the orchestra and not Mr. Green which sort of ties us in with him - an individual - and not the organization. As far as I am concerned,unless we have a legal situation here, if we are to continue any type of support to the Orchestra it should be to the Board and not any direct relation- ship between us and the conductor or any one individual. Let the Board administer the funds whether it comes from the City, patrons, ticket sales or whatever,in their best judgment® and whether it be for salaries or music or instruments or transportation or what. Leave it up to them to spend ;their funds accordingly. . Councilman Nichols: I was just going to say that I hope you didn't misunderstand my motivation in discussing primarily the contract and the renewal of city funds. I think if a contract were offered to somebody that involved the termination 4 or 5 months later that his consideration of that offer might be somewhat different than if he had reason to believe that it might be a continuing arrangement. I think overriding the particular contract being issued to the individual is the basic status of the Board and its relationship to the Council and I thought someone must at this early date begin throwing that out and causing all of us on the Commission and the - 4 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Five Re. W.C. Symphony Orchestra Council to give consideration to the fact that we are preparing to issue a contract to someone and possibly no one has said to him this is possibly going to be the end of the road. I think he should be alerted almost immediately that he will have some questions to answer to the Council for the organization, that this involves more than the waving of a baton, that this involves the original commitment made to Council to raise money to fund this thing when this first director stood before us and said my great function here is to raise the money to make this group independent. So when we wipe that away and go to a new man and issue a contract to him I think we should do that in isolation of these previous understandings and agreements and then come to him in June and say - sorry buddy you haven't.done.:the job, we are wiping out the whole show - this would not really be putting the whole package together as it needs to be put. My thrust was only in that area/although I am aware that the action being requested is a contract alone, but it certainly is mitigated and swayed by these other factors. Chairman Plesko: I have a point of information which you gentlemen may not be aware of. Commissioner Wilson and myself met with the Symphony Orchestra Board about a month ago and we emphasized the fact that we were really depending on them to get out and dig up some money to help the orchestra out. Our suggestion was that they form a Speaker's Bureau, which they have done. In talking with the President a few days ago they are prepared now to go out into the community and speak before every civic organization in West Covina. I think this will do' very much to educate the public regarding the orchestra. Every PTA president has agreed to have a member of the Board come before their organization and speak for 5 minutes. So I think this is an encouraging omen. Councilman Lloyd: Mrs. Plesko, pursuing your comment on that, what is the reaction of your Commission to the orchestra? Are you favorably disposed? Chairman Plesko: We are certainly in favor of the orchestra and the Society and have certainly done our bit to give them our moral support. We did meet with them and more or less tried to tell them it is up to you to get off your foot and do something. Councilman Lloyd: Are you, as a Commission, prepared to recommend the expenditure of the funds by the City and the proposal of this individual as a recreation activity in West Covina? Chairman Plesko: No, in fact we had asked our Director to place this item on our February agenda and at that time I believe we will all be able to discuss it and come up with a firm recommendation. Right now we are not prepared to make a statement one way or the other, because we have not discussed it on the Commission level. . Mayor Chappell: Are there further comments on this item? Councilman Young: One thing. The present status of the gentleman to be confirmed by the Council, is that he is only to be the interim director for this fiscal year, to finish the contract Mr. King has resigned from? Mr. Yamate: The communication from our Department to the Director/Conductor at this time is that as 5 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Six Re. W. C. Symphony Orchestra of June 30, 1972, we have no guarantee of any further commitments to a Director/Conductor as far as the City of West Covina is concerned. Meaning that precipitive on the actions of the City Council there may not be any monies available for the continuance • of the orchestra as it relates to the current status. This has been made clear to him, he understands it, he accepts it and is happy to (To it and what ramifications are to him after June 30th is unbeknown to us at the present time. Councilman Young: I think we have had good input here from the Council to the Commission to Mr. Yamate which will go to the orchestra. Summarizing it for the Mayor; generally the feeling is that there is a moral --obligation for the current year and there is a desire to see fulfilled the initial expectation of the orchestra to be self-sustaining, whether this would be a matter of .2 or 3 years, but we would like to see some progress. No one here is prepared to say whether or not there is progress being made just at this time but we will expect some reports along this line at a later time. With that I will turn the meeting over to you, Mr. Mayor. Mayor Chappell(: Yes, I think the Commission in studying their budget will have some ideas on this. I have watched the Symphony Orchestra and I have seen it growing a little bit. I enjoyed the music. I don't know what the history of performance is in an orchestra like this in making its own way, but I do see a lot of woxJL_-b_eing done and in my opinion I would like to see it continued on for at least another year, but that will be up to various recommendations that we get. Councilman Shearer: Mr. Mayor - I would like to reiterate one thing that I said. I don't recall the date but I have it here in my notes - sometime back there was a presentation here, possibly on the 25th of January last year, at which time Mr. Nordstrom was here and he made a financial presentation. At that time the financial presentation was.a bit confusing because there was an attempt made to differentiate between certain kinds of funds, and things got rather complex and I made the statement then and I will repeat it that at such time the Orchestra comes to us again with a financial statement, speaking for myself alone, I will insist on a complete financial statement and not an attempt to show only that portion spent that comes out of the City treasury. I don't care where it comes from, out of whose pocket, but I am interested in the overall administration of the Orchestra funds. So if that information could be passed on to whoever will be making the presentation it might be of help. Chairman Plesko: Mr. Mayor, it would be very helpful to us when we study this question at our February meeting to know exactly what you would like for us to take under consideration. I gather it would be the contract and whether it be with the director or the Society, and just how much longer the City should consider sustaining this Orchestra. Are there any other points? Councilman Shearer: I think the point Councilman Lloyd was getting at - city resident participation versus how many city dollars are going into it. We talk about 35 to 50 muscians, are these West Covina? Are they from out of town? If we are having a city recreation activity that is one thing, or are we attempting to have a professional type orchestra to present concerts? We have two different ballgames here, one a recreational activity and the other a professional group. I think my attitude might be different depending on what the results would show. 6 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS..COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Seven Re. W. C. Symphony Orchestra Mayor Chappell: So you would want a roll call on where the muscians come from as to location? Councilman Shearer: Right. Are we supporting the East San Gabriel Valley, L. A. County, Southern California, or • the City of West Covina, or what? I know some of the muscians are professional and are paid and I would like to know something in that regard. Whether tiis is a get together and having a good time set-up, or a get together and make some money set-up. Councilman Young: Along that line one point that came up last year was the fact that we learned quite by accident the West Covina Schools also participated apparently in this same organization in some fashion - dual rehearsals and all - and I am sure Councilman Shearer has that in his mind in desiring a full report as to where the money comes from, how it is spent and what are we doing? And secondly, I spent the weekend at Stockton with a lot of music people from West Covina High School and Cameron Elementary School and among them was the music Director of Cameron School, John Hoover, and we talked about the All City Band he put together last year in a matter of 2 or 3 weeks. He had over a 100 youngsters (as I recall) participating from West Covina Schools, they marched in the Fourth of July Parade, they got uniforms from the Azusa High School and in order to get the uniforms for that particular use he had to agree to catalog and inventory all the uniforms at the Azusa High School and he got 2 hours a day pay, I think, from the West Covina School District, for doing all this. I may be messed up on some of my details but I am not far off. In any event it seemed like a real worthwhile activity - over a 100 kids were whipped into shape and marched in a parade, and he has bigger dreams; and it seems like there is a built-in demand for the involving of youth and music, and what it would take to put a Band Shell in Cameron Park so it would play right into our house at 11 o'clock at night - I don't know - but I think this deserves some serious consideration and the possibility of some co-ordination with the School District. Certainly an activity like this should be continued. He has thoughts for weekly concerts in the summertime and the like and has demonstrated the ability to do it and that the interest is there. Councilman Shearer: We would probably get that for half of what we are paying for one concert a year by the Symphony Orchestra. Councilman Nichols: If you can put the dreams and the hormones together you can get a great deal done. Chairman Plesko: That would be considered a West Covina School District Band and not the West Covina City Band - right? Councilman Young: It was called the "All City Band" last year and the kids were all city kids and the barriers'bbtween.'.the..S.chool District and the City had been eroded for example by the Symphony Orchestra itself. • I think they could come all the way down and be totally eliminated in the field of recreation because it is certainly a_common interest and common responsibility and there are certain facilities that can be exchanged and are. This ought to be encouraged. It might merge with the West Covina School District - Mr. Lloyd.. Councilman Lloyd: Well that can't be all bad. I hadn't thought_ of it, we might work on it. Mayor Chappell: That is not all bad. Is there anything else - 7 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS.: COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Eight RE. W. C. Symphony Orchestra else on the Symphony Orchestra? I do want to apologize for being late, I started to deliver a policy nearer to the deadline than I expected to/ and also sold another policy. Normally I don't mix my business with the responsibilities of the City. • FINANCING PARK Mayor Chappell: Chairman Plesko, would IMPROVEMENTS you like to present this item. Chairman Plesko: At your request the Recreation and Parks Commission and staff has studied the practi- cdbi'lity. of placing a recreation bond issue on the April municipal ballot and each of you have in front of you a packet which we will go through. First of all, we are talking about capital improvement monies for our parks. At the present time we do not have one totally developed park in the City of West Covina. In addition we have a brand new park in Woodside Village which has been graded and that is all. So when we are talking about a bond issue we are talking roughly about one and a half to two million bond. This figures does not represent additional personnel or equipment which would be needed if passed. Secondly, in checking with other communities who have had unsuccessful bond elections we find we would need at least a year to plan, promote and sell to the voting public the need for such an election. Even then there is no indication anywhere around that we would be successful. To place this issue on the April ballot, in our opinion, would only stir up much emotion which would not be fair to our Department, it would not give us time to do a halfway decent job of promoting it. Even holding a special election a year from now leaves us cold as the climate for bond issues, whether it be for schools or park issues, does not seem to be right. School issues have been overwhelmingly defeated all around us, even in West Covina. We have made a very special effort to try and find alternate means of financing, such as: 1 - We have looked into the Community Service Tax. This is a tax levied by the School District. We invited John Eastman, Assistant Superintendent of Finance to speak to the Commission on this subject. In some areas this fund is used quite actively for recreation and parks, but not in West Covina. There used to be an agreement between the two governing bodies that called for a 4(,' tax on $100. assessed values but this was discontinued in 1965. 2 - We looked into Federal Grants. We met with a representative of HUD to try and determine what monies where available for park development and beautification. After taking a tour of our fair City with the representative we got the feeling that our looks were deceiving. It was very difficult trying to prove to the representative that even though we looked good we are indeed not so well off. With Federal Grants in all cases we would have to have matching funds. So that seems to be out. We also met with the representative from the Mayor's office, City of Los Angeles. He gave us insight into many Federal Grants and also mentioned the possibility of contacting the Army Core of Engineers for any heavy.duty work that we might have to have done. Immediately we thought of oua new Maverick Field on Azusa. The engineers will do this for a community service project, gratis, of course, and at the same time they are giving their engineers on the job training. So this was something we were not aware of. We also asked our Director to make a survey of 50 cities comparable in size to our City, to try and determine - 8 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Nine Re. FINANCING PARK IMPROVEMENTS the different types of financing used for recreation and parks. The results of the survey are in the package which we will get to shortly. • We are certainly cognizant of the fact that the City Council has no easy problem when budget time arrives and you are confronted with so many departments which need so much and the many priorities which face you. In our recent studies we have not been able to come up with a sure fire way of financing and in view of this the Recreation and Parks Commission has made the following recommendation: "Motion was made by Commissioner Sooter and seconded by Commissioner Bemoll that the Recreation and Parks Commission recommend to the City Council that we not attempt a bond issue at this time due to the following reasons: (a) Municipal elections are not the opportune time for such an issue. A special election would be more ideal; (b) Due to the nature of the economy at the present time; (c) due to the high taxes at this particular time; and (d) that the Commission took a sample poll and the feeling seems to be negative at this time and the community is not receptive at this particular time." That motion was unanimously carried. If you would like we can go through some of the information in the packet or you can ask us questions. Mayor Chappell: Why don't you briefly brush through the packet and then we can ask questions. (Chairman Plesko briefly summarized the written material given to the Council.) Chairman Plesko: We asked staff to come up with some things that really need to be done in our City and you will find the Recreation & Parks staff recommendations listed, some of the things that if we didn't go for a bond we would certainly want included in improvements throughout the parks. It comes to a grand total of $1,573,000, which does not include the Nature Center at Galster Park or the shopping center play areas.. No figures are available there. The minutes of the Recreation and Parks Commission meeting of November 2nd and this is where we really sat down and studied the nitty-gritty. We looked at the Master Plans of oui parks, all have been approved so far except Cortez Park, and some of the things we feel are in priority are counted in there. We have the minutes of our Recreation and Parks Commission adjourned meeting of November 17 regarding the bond issue and this is the time that each of the Commissioner's pointed out their reasons for not wanting to go bond this year. The last item, which is very interesting, is the survey which our Director took care of for us. In writing to the 50 cities he asked: Does your City levy a park tax? Do you intend having a park tax? The rate? What reasons determined this rate and what other funds for capital improvements? Out of 50 questionnaires mailed he received 37 back, and we found that 16 of • the cities have a park tax; 21 have no park tax, although one does contemplate having one very soon. And the reasons are noted here. So that just about covers it. Councilman Young: Chairman Plesko, is there more or less inherent or running through the unwritten lines of your report and your material that the feeling of the Commission is that our really only feasible approach to improving our parks and keeping pace with needed capital improvements must be through a special park tax? Can we accept that? - 9 - CITY COUNCIL and REC® & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Ten Re. Financing Park Improvements Chairman Plesko: Yes, I think you can. The consensus of the five Commissioners is that is about the only way to go. Councilman Young: Do you have any thoughts on how we can sell • it? We have a municipal election right now but I don't believe any of the ten or twelve candidates would care to make that an issue? Chairman Plesko: I doubt it but possibly before you consider your next budget - if the Recreation and Parks Commission could be of any help in selling it to the community I think all of us would be more than happy to do so. At least give you some moral support. i Mayor Chappell: In that area you were talking of some Federal funds of a matching type, just throwing it out on the table could it be as small as $100,000 a year type situation or do you have to have your plans and build it all in one year? Or do they allot you a lump sum and you do with it what you can? Are you that far along in that study? Chairman Plesko: We are not that far along. However, I believe Mr. Stevens might have some answers. Mr. Stevens: I think the main involvement is the fact if you have plans drawn it would be advantageous. If you do not then you have to go through this process. The money then is allocated according to the project. I worked in a City where we wanted to go urban beautification in which we not only worked on the development of a park but the planting of street trees, beautification of median strips and all these other f acturs. So we encompassed it all into one government grant request. You expend the monies 100/ and then the government reimburses you 50% after it is expended. This is what we found out generally in these grants. You put out 100% and then they reimburse you later on and this is the other problem, Mayor Chappell: That makes for a real hang up. Mr. Stevens: It does. Councilman Young: Cities don't have borrowing capacity except through bonds? Mr. Aiassa: The only borrowing capacity we have is the general obligation bonds, revenue bonds and Federal Grants. And Mr. Stevens has pretty well outlined the procedure of the Federal Grants, There must be positive assurance that you are going to complete the project and then they evaluate the project before you receive the money and this is a little binding. Councilman Young: We need kind of a Muncipal Diner's Club Card for this type of project. It sounds a . little silly but it might be quite practical. We might advise our congressional legislators of the program. Councilman Shearer: Maybe you have something there - call it "Young's Folly." Mayor Chappell: In your research how deep have you gone in the Federal funding situation? In looking at the School District they have a man that spends almost his full-time working for things like this and I remember back that this is not unusual, most large School Districts - 10 - • • CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Eleven Re. Financing Park Improvements have such a situation.. Are you the one doing that in our City, Mr. Stevens, looking for this type of situation? M'r. Stevens: Yes pertaining to parks and recreation I am more or less pursuing this. Mayor Chappell: And where .are they aiming their money - primarily, beautification of roads like Azusa? Mr. Stevens: The underprivileged. The representative that came from HUD asked what the social economic level was around the particular areas involved - what the minority population was around the area - that seemed to be the great impetus. There were three priorities set up and we thought we were suitable for number 2 and 3, but we did not have the minority factor in our favor. The individual said - fine you can submit your application but number 1 priority would be for those groups that are a minority group and are underprivileged. If X amount of dollars were available they said we would be so low on the totem pole that it would be just motion work for us. In fact we went with another staff member to pursue this further and met with a young lady representative of HUD and she reiterated the same facts - there didn't seem to be anything in our favor. We pursued it with the State, under the Land and Water Conservation program, the same problem there. They are more or less looking for the underprivileged because they feel they are the ones that are not getting all the programming f acilities that they need. So this is their Number 1 priority. Mr. Aiassa: You are also facing a serious problem that the amount of projects put forth by the various cities that have the underprivileged defini- tions are so great in comparison to the amount of money allocated that they don't even have enough money to take care of the critical areas that they feel in their mind meets the criteria set forth. So if we do and are successful it would only be a satellite situation somewhere such as a regional park that might have a far reaching program. This is what Mr. Stevens is pointing out - you make the application, spend time and money and get the paperwork done but when it comes to the actual money getting you are limited. Some areas in other cities are badly in need of just play areas for recreation which we would not even be able to qualify. Councilman Lloyd: simply because we are depressed so there are Mr. Stevens: Councilman Lloyd: Mr. Stevens: Councilman Lloyd: minority population or that count. I take it then through the recommendation of the Commission and the staff, that there is just no point in pursuing it any further not a minority group or not economically no programs available to us at this time. That is correct. We particularly researched the Legacy of Parks that Mr. Nixon particu- larly advocated and we are not eligible in that requirement. Because of lack of a minority situation and because of not being low on the family income situation? Yes sir. In other words the growth dynamics of urbanization factor so long as you do a below average income. factor and the are really not a not have a Those are the things CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Twelve RE. Financing Park Improvements Mr. Stevens: Those are the things emphasized within this Act. Councilman Lloyd: I find it rather difficult that all of a • sudden we are emphasizing a minority situation, economic is understandable, but I feel that there is a certain amount of defranchisement if based strictly on a racial approach. And if that is what it is then we would be less than honest not to accept it and not expend funds to try and achieve something which is unachievable. Councilman Shearer: I have a question, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Stevens, in the summary of your report, the inquiries to various cities, I notice in a number of cases, for instance I read the City of El Monte says yes they have a park tax - 18(,4. The next column determines this rate and the answer in that column is maintenance of the park system. I take it from that that even though the City of E1 Monte has an 18(,4 park tax it is not ear marked for capital improvements. Is that correct? Mr. Stevens: Yes sir. Councilman Shearer: Well then really we are not so far out of step in summarizing and saying that 16 cities have a park tax and in looking through I would circle at least 8 or 9 that use it in parks for operational purposes, so in that sense West Covina has a park tax but not so specified. If we would equate the budget of the Recreation and Parks to a tax rate and say this is a park tax we would also have a park tax. The point I am getting at is even though there were sixteen cities with a park tax that doesn't mean that the sixteen cities have earmarked their funds for capital improvement. El Monte is one, Downey another states to support departmental operations, even one is to supplement the General Fund. So those sixteen cities are not allocating this all to capital improvements. Councilman Lloyd: I think it is a very good point. In other words what he is saying and I agree whole- heartedly, it doesn't make any difference how you allocate itrthe thing that counts is how much money are you actually putting in. Now if it comes out of the General Fund are you spending $100,000 or are you spending $100,000 as a result of a 10 or 15(,' park tax - it doesn't make any difference. Are they allocating in El Monte any of the funds out of the General Fund to this over and above the 18(,? Mr. Stevens: Yes they are. Councilman Lloyd: In other words they have a regular park and recreation allocation out of the General Fund - do you know what the amounts are? Mr. Stevens: No, I didn't pursue that any further. • Councilman Lloyd: That would be rather interesting to find out just what these two things add up to. In other words are we so far off on our expenditures as to be out of line - I think that is what we are really asking. Mayor Chappell: I think one thing in that area is the fact that cities like El Monte and San Gabriel have not really had the population growth we have known for:.:the past ten or fifteen years. Basically they - 12 - • CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PK. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Thirteen Re. Financing Park "Improvements are maintaining something they have had for many years. We are looking at bare lands and have attempted through the years to develop bare land with no funds. So you can't compare those two situations. They apparently are not looking for capital outlay in their parks, they have their land developed and all they are interested in is maintaining it, where we have to not only maintain it and keep it up but we have to look for funds to develop and bring them up to what we call a park. I think that is where our big hang up is. If these things had all been taken care of throughout the last 50 years we/ would be in better shape but we haven't had that advantage. Commissioner Petta: I would like to point out in the last two comments of the Councilmen to clarify one point, it wasn't the intention of the Commission or the staff to point out that the City was away out as far as what they were spending by not having a park tax, or recommending that we go to a park tax. We felt by going to a park tax it was a way to get some of our capital improvements. Councilman Lloyd: I don't think it is unrealistic though. You have every right to make that recommendation if you feel that way, I don't find any fault with that. I might say we can't afford a tax now, or we shouldn't be involved in that, but I certainly would hope that you and the staff, if you honestly believe in a project, would come forward and say it is worthy of putting a tax on, or worthy of more money out of the roughly six million dollars spent in the City of West Covina. If you think there should be more money spent here, well then maybe that is where it should go, maybe it is more important that it go into a park or recreation, or whatever, than where we are putting it. If you feel that way, say it. Councilman Young: I think these figures from the other cities are interesting. I think they are perhaps forceful to a very limited extent because what we are dealing with is what we recognize as a need in West Covina. The need for expansion of certain parks, land acquisition and the need for the expansion of the activities we can offer which involves capital improvements and capital outlay. So we do have some comparison here but we have to deal with West Covina. I believe in reading this material if we could get a'bond issue passed we would have to pay off the bonds and there is no way that this particular program can be self-sustaining, not like a swimming pool, for example, which has a better chance because we charge admission, but not_a park, some activities could but some could not, so we are still looking and encouraging a tax to pay the bonds back. We would have to tack on 10 or 15<, or whatever additional tax it would take. Mr. Stevens: Plus the addition of personnel and equipment for maintenance. • Councilman Young: That is the ongoing expense item as opposed to the capital outlay item. That is the package we have to look at. The issue " we face is whether or not we could dothe needed expansion in a short period of time and pay for it over the long pull, or with the same tax as we nbuld pass and not bring on a total revolt in our City. If it would be better to do it that way and then gradually build up our program from year to year. This is the issue we have to come to grips with and either way it is going to require a lot of salesmanship to the entire City of West Covina. Maybe we could do a bond issue in a year's time if we appropriately presented it 13 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. .JOINT MEETING 2/7/72 Page Fourteen Re. Financing Park Improvements and if -we let it be presented we can end'up with a mandate that would say "no we don't want money spent on parks." So we come out the same way anyhow. If we get thrown out of office in 2 years or 4 years - as the case may be (2 months Jim says) and that tax is gone and the capital improvement is gone. So I submit this for your consideration as to which way we go. . Mayor Chappell: Is there anything further on this item? Councilman Shearer: One more comment. I think this all started because of a statement I made a few months back saying that I was calling for a bond issue. I wasn't calling for a bond issue, only a discussion of the pros and cons and apparently, at least as far as the Commission is concerned, the cons outnumber the pros. The irony of it is I had in mind a bond issue to pay off what would be roughly equivalent to a 10� park tax and the practicality is that :it would probably be defeated but we can turn right around and establish a 10(,' park tax and that can be accepted. I heard a number of favorable compliments on that, but the same people will say "no" to a bond issue and in reality you would get a lot more out of a bond issue because you can build it now with today's dollars but they would shout "no" on that, although it is costing the same out of pocket. So I guess you take the easy way out and forget the bond issue and consider the extra park tax, if and when we get a recommendation from the Commission. Perhaps that shows some of the gullibility of us humans. A million and a half looks much bigger than a park tax of 10(�. Mayor Chappell: Well that is where we have to start figuring on how to make that sale, explaining to them that it is going to be the same either way but we have our cake now and we will pay for it as we go along. Councilman Young: It is good democratic philosophy. Mayor Chappell: I just changed my mind. Chairman Plesko: I was going to say since I have been in West Covina - about 16 years - we have had three bond issues in Recreation and Parks and they have all been failures and we have no encouraging note to go forward on. Mayor Chappell: That is right and we have to keep that in the back of our minds. PAVILION AND Mayor Chappell: Chairman Plesko - RECREATION CENTER/ may we hear from you CORTEZ PARK on this subject. Chairman Plesko: Mr. Mayor, this kind of took me by surprise and I am really not prepared to handle it. • Councilman Lloyd: I don't think you should be, I think we should get it down to the culprits who caused the problem, Mr. Mayor. Mayor Chappell: Alright, Councilman Lloyd. Councilman Lloyd: I am the person who has talked about it and I know Mr. Shearer has also talked about it and we have not necessarily been in total agreement on it. However, one of the major things we lacked in this - 14 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Fifteen Re. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park community and I say this in acceptance of the problems that have been presented in regards to funding. Let's start right out and say you are not going to get a bond issue at this point. I agree eventually it can be done but right now it won't. What I am • really discussing at the present moment is in the areas of priorities and the are& of philosophy. Mr. Chappell brought up an extremely fine point when he said that certain communities which have some antiquity, at least greater than that of West Covina, at least with the population that is currently residing here vis-a-vis E1 Monte, Pasadena, Pomona, etc., that we are really behind the 8-ball because we have grown too fast to acquire those vestments of facilities in our own society that will allow us to serve the community in the manner everyone of us wants to do. So we come down to the point that we are going to have to realign some of the priorities we have. Not the least of which is we have to arbitrarily say in the monies that we are spending in the area of park and recreation - do we want it to go to recreation which is people oriented, or do we want it to go to parks? As indicated, there are cities that do not have to make this distinction but unfortunately this is one of the problems foisted upon us and I would like to have a realignment of the attitudes ' and the thinking of the people to see if we have to serve the people first and get to the parks second. We have gone into a Wilderness Park for good or for evil, and I have heard many comments both pro and con on it, we spent a lot of money there. I don't know what the utilization factor is on -an individual basis. Someday if you get a chance Mr. Stevens you might indicate that. And the same thing is true of all of our parks - which we decry at the present moment as not being satisfactory to serve .this society. Now I am asking you - not only are we going to accept these weaknesses but what I am really saying is let's reorient and go for some sort of a pavilion. I spoke to the City Manager possibly three or four years ago originally about the possibility of building some sort of a pavilion, a pavilion which could be used as a "small convention center" which would be the focal point of recreational activities, whether it is folk dancing, basketball, badminton and it could further be used for major sporting events with some crowd seating capacaity and I use the figure of five thousand spectators. Where we could bring in the leagues, volleyball leagues, and college leagues, etc., and in addition and in conjunction with . an earning basis. We could provide a small capability for a small convention. We have some hotels and things here and one of the problems is they can handle probably five hundred people but..not a whole convention center such as in downtown Los Angers, San Francisco, etc., and as such I thought we might be able to`"pay for the facility through this type of thing, so it is not a constant drain on the taxes we already have. We have only so many dollars in the pot and I am saying perhaps we should consider shifting some of the • dollars towards an earning situation. I think Mr. Shearer feels somewhat along this line. We need a facility which identifies with the City of West Covina. It can be done as a headquarters thing, even in the areas we are working with so very well already such as the Little League, Pop Warner and this type of activity, which unfortunately stops right at the point where we should be continuing. I have already vocalized my thoughts along those lines about the participation of people in the age groups of 30 - 40 and 50 - that we do not have activities for these people. I think we should review our priorities and I am commending to - 15 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Sixteen Re. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park both Council and the Recreation & Parks Commission and certainly to staff that we should consider the building of a building which will adequately house this type of activity. In other words I am not putting the forum out of business or intimating that thing should • be done, but there is no adequate facility for any of the cities in the East San Gabriel Valley and I think this is an opportunity for West Covina to participate. For instance, a typical example is the Covina Basketball Christmas Tournament. I don't know how many people attend but I do know some of the finest teams in.the Nation participate in a gymnasium which I am ashamed to admit was built as a highschool gym. I was fortunate enough as a youngster to have the use of a gymnasium that puts to shame anything you have seen around here and that really doesn't speak well for our society. I don't think we have done very well in.this area. I don't think I can rectify it, however, I think we have an obligation to consider this. It may just be straws in the wind. I have talked to members of staff about this and some other individuals - I think we might just pay attention and maybe realign some of our priorities for achievement. I see this as a far more involvement than the building of a waterfall at Cortez Park. I suggested Cortez Park but let me say that with reservations, I am not married to Cortez Park on the thing. There was some talk of the possibility of acquiring additional lands in there and if it were achieved then we might be in a position to utilize that facility which is natural to this type of involvement. Mayor Chappell: It is a point I thought of for quite a long time, in fact when the Carousel was torn down this was a point._I had in mind. A facility of this type would adopt itself very nicely to what we have been talking about in the way of Senior Citizen groups. I have talked to friends who have parents that belong to the Senior Citizen group and we have a real need for this type of thing, but then you get back to that other side and you are talking about costs that even a 10(,, park tax carried over a three year period wouldn't even raise that kind of money, so we get back to a bond issue and the fact that the success of bond issues - well you feel like you are chasing your tail around and around. I have always looked around in our community for some citizen who would like to have a building like that named after him. I have often thought if I had money that is one of the things I would like to do with it, but I haven't been able to convince anyone that has the money that is the place to go. We have people in our community who maybe we could start approaching on that idea of a will type of thing or even having it named after them. Mr. Galster started it in our community with the beautiful parksite itself and then it was improved and when you talk about what parks cost today it was not a lot of money, a lot more money than any of us have certainly. I think this is the area we have to approach, I think there are people in our area like that. Chairman Plesko: Similar to the way the Music Center was built in Los Angeles. Public subscriptions, a foundation was formed, etc., and maybe that is the answer. Councilman Young: I would commend to ,.the attention of the Council the Center that exists in Culuer City, California, which does tend to be somewhat like the Center you referred to, Mr. Lloyd. You can have basketball games there and accommodate a pretty good crowd, and you can have plays and operas .and band concerts, etc., and accommodate good crowds. You can have weddings and receptions there, swim meets and if you are of the Senior Citizen category you can,have special rooms reserved. - 16 - • CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Seventeen Re. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park It is one center operated by one man and a staff and it is busy and I understand a money maker within limits. It is certainly not a burden on Culver City. The pressure I have gotten and I haven't had a chance to talk to Jim but I think his ideas are very well taken and would certainly tie in with the'desires of many people in this town to have a Civic Auditorium, which in my opinion is a very high priority item. But an auditorium can be a very flexible place if it is properly designed and the traditional auditorium isn't. Like this one we are sitting in. Mayor Chappell: Do you know how they built that? Did somebody donate the funds to start it or what? Councilman Young: I don't know but we could find out. The Director of it was a very good friend of Bob Gingrich's and I know him. I would be happy to accompany you on that. Councilman Shearer: I agree with the concept that Councilman Lloyd presented. I think it is a fine idea, a lot of ideas are fine and I wish we could implement all of the ideas. I fail to see though how we could raise such a large institution by re-establishing priorities. I don't think there is enough flexibility within the City's expenditures to even'over a period of 10 or 15 years perhaps to come up with the money. I think we are back into a bond issue. Perhaps, Jim, was talking about re-establishing our priorities in the manner of thinking and planning rather than the priorities of spending existing income. If that is the case then I will agree 100%. Councilman Lloyd: That is it precisely. I am sorry I wasn't very specific. We have talked about many things in this City and we talked about an auditorium and I reviewed in my mind and I am certainly no expert in the area of auditoriums but we need a center and certainly traditional_ auditoriums are always a burden. They do not produce for themselves even as evidenced in our own community by what went on at the Carousel Theatre. And I don't say that therefore means everything will fail, but I think we need to have a broader base than just a theatrical presentation and that is really what I am proposing. One of the things that would indicate to us that the people in West Covina are really willing to put effort forward in this area is that all of these schools, all of the people that participate in the area of Little League, Pop Warner, the ice skating hockey team, etc., these people put in a horrendous amount of time and energy and they all have one common gripe - there is no really - to quote "adequate facility" and when.it gets right down to one youngster and one parent they are willing to do a great deal more than they would for a traditional auditorium where Susie may or may not dance. But if Johnny or Susie are going to participate in some recreational activity, whether it is Little League or whatever it may be, they then put more effort forward and I think we can anticipate a greater impetus and a greater interest and effort on the part of the people in West Covina and the people surrounding us. The people in LaPuente, Walnut, Baldwin Park or Covina - no one around us has an adequate facility of this type. One of the reasons I thought of it was when I worked for NBC one of the problems I had was to try and find a gymnasium that was even geographically located sufficiently well to transmit a good TV signal and we ended up with South Hills which is an atrocious gym but it was used because it could transmit that signal. And that is one of the considerations if you go into that type thing, just to give you an idea of the interest. that is - 17 - CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Eighteen RE. Pavilion and Recreation Center/Cortez Park generated outside of our own community because they too are interested in the youngsters that play basketball - in this case, or any other activity of that type. Mayor Chappell: Do any of the Commissioners have any comments on this particular subject? At least you are getting some sort of a feel on it and not a hopeless one but it is not the brightest feel you could receive, I am sure. Commissioner Bemoll: Mr. Mayor, I would like to respond. I have lived in this area for quite a few years and as I think back and as our school systems have been developed and our communities have grown, particularly in regards to the school systems, our gymnasiums were built on bonded money through the State, and through the State aid program we went through it was impossible to build the type of Center Pavilion Councilman Lloyd refers to.. If we go beyond that and think of a larger auditorium/convention center and pavilion we have to think in terms of a bonded program and most of the communities have been real reluctant to ask the taxpayers to go into a regional center which this would probably be. My thought would be on a regional basis to go through the County. The County does develop sport centers conceivably on a county level and we could think in terms of participating in that type of a program and set up a regional center that would take care of these activities he expounded to. Mayor Chappell: Yes, but the area they are doing that in is sort of unpopular right now. Commissioner Bemoll: We: have the Puddingstone Dam Area right over here and they are going to put a million more dollars in that area. When you think of one community providing this center and it is going to be used by the area - the`E ast San Gabriel Valley - well single communities are reluctant to provide that facility with taxpayers money, but on a regional basis it is feasible. Mayor Chappell: Very good point. Is there anything else or any other items to be brought up? SENIOR CITIZEN Mr. Aiassa: One item of interest to both GROUP the Commission and the Council. We have had a strong interest in a Senior Citizen program and we would like to have an indication from the Council authorizing me and my staff to contact these people and come forth with some sort of a recommendation to the Recreation and Parks people to evaluate, and at the same time we would like to work with what is called the "Young Adults". Mr. Stevens and I have talked about this and we have also met with the Senior Citizen Groups and we would like to have them meet and talk with the Recreation and Parks Commission at their next meeting. • Mayor Chappell: Mr. Aiassa: because of the time Do you want a motion for that, Mr. Aiassa? Well we would like to receive a little feeling from the Council that you are interested and want us to pursue it and efforts that will need to be expended. Motion by Councilman Lloyd that the City Council authorize the staff to meet and speak with the people in the Senior Citizens Group and the Young Adults Group, and that reports be given to the CITY COUNCIL and REC. & PKS. COMM. JOINT MEETING - 2/7/72 Page Nineteen RE. Senior Citizen & Young Adult Groups Commission and the Council. Seconded by Councilman Shearer. Mayor Chappell: I certainly think we are all very much in favor of that, Mr. Aiassa. Are there any " other comments? Motion carried. Mayor Chappell: Is there anything else? Chairman Plesko do your Commissioners have anything? Chairman Plesko: I would like to ask our Commissioners to stay after your adjournment, we have one item to discuss. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Councilman Young, seconded by Councilman Lloyd and carried, to adjourn joint meeting at 6:07 P.M. APPROVED: MAYOR ATTEST: City Clerk • - 19 -