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02-16-1971 - Regular Meeting - MinutesMINUTES OF THE ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING OF CITY COUNCIL CITY OF WEST COVINA, CALIFORNIA FEBRUARY 16, 1971. The adjourned regular meeting of the City Council was called to order by Mayor Ken Chappell at 7:35 P.M. in the West Covina Council Chambers. The Pledge of Allegiance was led by the Mayor. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Chappell; Councilmen Shearer, Young, Lloyd Councilman Nichols (Arrived at 8:15 P.M.) Others Present: Personnel Board: Chairman Tice; Messrs. Faunce, Sornborger, Sanborn (Francis Zoelle (Absent) George Aiassa, City Manager H. R. Fast, Public Services Director Ray Windsor, Administrative Assistant Ross Nammar, Administrative Assistant Lela Preston, City Clerk Jim Millis (Street Dept., Representative) JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD (Mayor Chappell welcomed the members of the Personnel Board and suggested that since the attendance at the meeting was at a minimum it might be better to move the meeting to the City Manager's conference room, where a more informal type of meeting could take place. There were no objections, meeting transferred to City Manager's conference room.) Mr. Aiassa: Mr. Mayor prior to the start of the joint meeting I would like to advise Council that we do have two people on the State Transportation Committee: Councilman Jim Lloyd and George Wakefield, City Attorney. JOINT MEETING DISCUSSION ITEMS 1) The need for Classification and Salary Survevs - Utilizina Outside Consultants Chairman Tice: Mr. Mayor and members of Council at the last couple of Board meetings, members brought up questions regarding the criteria we have been following for the past several years. One of the big items questioned is do we want to maintain the 3rd and 4th position in the ten city comparison? Also do we want .to continue with the ten cities in comparing? On the agenda presented to you we have six -items we would like to discuss and receive direction on. Beginning with Item 1, there is some question in our minds whether we want to go through another Classification Study; the Salary Survey is probably necessary and the Fringe Benefit Analysis. We wondered if Council had any thoughts in this area. Mr. Aiassa: I might advise Council that this afternoon we 0 had a reading of the budget and as you know we budgeted $6,000 for this type of work and used $1500.plus for the last survey completed by Mr. Gold. So we have approximately $4,000 to spend in this category. Mayor Chappell: Mr. Aiassa, will you bring us up-to-date for the need of these studies? Mr. Aiassa: About every 2 years we go through a job classification analysis as well as a salary survey.' Last year we went through a salary survey anIq not a major classification study. Every 2 years we CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Two normally come in for a reclassification study and a salary review. The three important things are: 1 - whether the Council and Personnel Board will stay with the policy of the 65 - 75th percen- tile;--and-2 - the number of cities we have been using for comparison; and 3 - whether or not the City should review the overall Fringe •Benefits in the terms of what the City has already granted and what other cities are granting and what we may be forced to grant if put to us by the various employee groups. Finally and most important, there are certain salaries we did not adjust in the January period and are,-. normally scheduled for an analysis and reevaluation in July 1971. There are about ten classifications, no more. These would probably need special consideration whether we did a survey or not. So there are 3 things you are faced with, 1 - whether you. want to stay with the 65th - 75th percentile; 2 - continue using the comparison cities used before in establishing, the criteria; and 3 - a complete review of the Fringe Benefits. Councilman Young: The key question involved is, of course, what the employees themselves think about these various matters. This is very important. Chairman Tice: Yes, but we may not be able to take the employees, wishes into consideration with the situation the way it is today economically. Councilman Young: But at least we should know what they are thinking. Mr. Aiassa: I can only relate the little input I receiv- ed at the_last..meeting with the employees' representatives which may go by default.in recognizing the Police and Fire Associations, because this will make the employees group probably only a working liaison group but not a policy or determining group that can actually represent the employees. At present they would like to see a rather complete analysis of classifications and salaries in 1971-72. Councilman Lloyd: I think there is a more burning question than what the employees want or even what do we want. First you have to look at the pro- jected income of the City and since the major percentage is for personnel then we would have to turn around and say what is our economic base? That is to begin with. And after we have looked it over I think the next.thing we must look at is the total community, which frankly this Board and Council represents, the people of this community and of course the percentage factor of those city �loyees that reside in the ;City that fall: into.,-- this bracket. So - we Crust therefore - how say: ,chat is the economic climate in which we are talking about raises and projections, etc., in which we want to lie. Then I think we can come back and begin to evaluate how much we want to give to people commensurate with that very fine line which the people in Personnel are continually walking which is where do we • have the breaking point where we are going to have dissatisfaction that will affect the overall efficiency and therefore the economy/ that can be involved in the running of the City. So first we need to know what are our projections and then when we know what kind of dough we have to work with we can then start making these value judgmentswhether we want to be at the 70th percentile or the 50th and whether the criteria of these ten cities that we have used in the past are any longer applicable. Maybe we should be comparing with Baldwin Park, Covina, Pomona, etc., rather than those we have been comparing with. That is the way I see it. First isthere money and then we can talk about these other things which are variables. Councilman Shearer: I agree 100/ with that. I think we have - 2 - • U CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Three to consider the most important - what can we afford to do? Sure we would like to do certain things but if our funds won't stretch? I would like to ask a question. The Classification Study seems to be quite a whooper in cost m anywhere from $3,000 to $21,OOOo What, briefly, did we get two years ago for whatever amount of money was spent? What did we spend two years ago,for a Classification Study? Mr. Aiassa: $6800. The criteria report received is the one you received in your packet. (Explained in full what0as provided for that amount of money.) Mayor Chappell: And that is a complete study? (Answer: Yes) Is it normal to come back two years later and have another study? Mr. Aiassa: What Council has to understand is if you are going to change or review job classifications it has to be done in complete total, because if not you will have a lopsided set up. Now some of the classifications and jobs will not need a great deal of change but some will, and these happen to be scattered throughout the 80 plus classifications. From time to time there are positions that have to be revalued as to their performance and duties to be sure they are working and performing within the classifications. If not, then the salary will reflect that also. Councilman Shearer: Two years ago did we get a report based on the job requirements - say Maintenance Man I is worth a certain amount in relationship to Maintenance Man II and in relationship to the Foreman and the Superintendent, etc., ? Chairman Tice: 'Yes we had a complete study. Councilman Shearer: I would seriously question the reliability of that report if two years later again we have to figure out are these people in proper rank? It may be one thing that the cost of living keeps increasing.... Mr. Faunce: If you have a big change in a job then you would have to have a complete survey. I think we might be able to get away with the 10 or 15 needed if they did not disturb the entire structure. If they do then you have to start all over again. Councilman Young: You are suggesting, that the work that has been done by the salary consultant then could be done on an inhouse basis? Or am I jumping too far on that? Chairman Tice: I think where we do have these discrepancies we should have a consultant to look at these, but I don't think we need a whole complete review at this point. Mr. Windsor: May I make a'comment to the effect that Mr. Aiassa set up this machinry several years ago to take care of this problem and that is the Administrative Review Committee, which the Council introduced again this year and appropriated some funds to review those classifications they had some problems with and the question is now how often do you do that before having another major classification study? Every consultant that I talked to was quite surprised that we were asking for quotations on a complete study after such a short period but we did it to actually show you what the cost would be. ® 3 CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Four JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Mr. Aiassa: We had it broken down as to cost so you could determine how deep or far you wanted to go. . Councilman Young: I am about to rebuke something here. I somewhat agree with my fellow Councilman Jim Lloyd and Councilman Shearer and somewhat disagree in the sense that we first have to look at the money. I think we have to first look -at the service we are expected to render and look at what we have to do to render that service. I think salaries that are competitive are essential. For example in the Police Department area, I -don't mind having young policemen but I want some tired old veterans on there too with cool heads. I don't want them all going off to be police chiefs somewhere else or patrolmen in Los Angeles. So I think our responsibility is to find the money if we have toy even if it comes to the point of raising taxes. We have a service to render and we have to do it. This :is by way of a partial rebuttal, a philosophical rebuttal to what has been said. The question that has been coming into my mind, having worked on the Board with these gentlemen other than with Mr. Tice, and having faced some of these concerns, I know how hard the Personnel Board works and the tough front line job it is'with the employees and I am wondering about rethinking this thing in terms of a consultant on call to the Board as needed within certain budgetary limits on an annual basis® Mr. Gold has apparently worked out very well. He started in about'67 and he is still with us and we have a good employee -employer relationship and I think Mr. Gold prob•,ably has a lot to do with it. He was quite prominently mentioned, for example, at the Firemen's function which Mayor Chappell and I attended last night, which is good, particularly when the firemen didn't get the good raise the police did at this junction. It is a thought that we might consider, a retainer type thing like we have with the City Attorney. It has virtually worked out that way anyway so why don't:. we face it and do it and then when the Administrative Review Committee feels a Classification Study is needed we have the consult- ant on a retainer basis and have an understanding as to the additional hours that might be required and go from there. Councilman Lloyd: I don't know why I can't find clients that have that approach because I like it. However, on the other side of the fence I say we are facing a very antagonistic political climate at this moment. We should be critically aware of the fact that there are a lot of people that did not get raises and a)lot of people do not have jobs and are no longer working overtime and all the test of it. You used a word which frankly terrifies me/both as a politician and as a pragmatist. I have no intentions of being involved in any tax rise. I want economies that will go long, far and wide before I consider, as a legislator, a tax rise. I can't face my people. I can't face even my own people working in my office with the salaries that are being paid by the City. I have already said this and no one should be offended by it and I can understand the why of this. I understand the structure of the mechanism but I also see • other things which I think are of value and maybe they are not worth a darn and if so let's find out. I know you people have considered them because I have spoken to you about these things. I also know the administration has considered its 'In (4orking.-with*eA ties and industry in Southern California and working in this building or in any of the environments of the City of West Covina as being oppresive, I can point to Baldwin Park as one which is certainly not even remotely close and apparently the people in Covina think their building is inadequate and it is better than what we operated with for many years, but granted it is not good as far as the environment is concerned. As far as the leniency of this administrative operation here under the City Manager and the Department Heads - let .me say this, we frankly, and I do get around to many of these cities, - 4 CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Five JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD and I don't need 10 cities to set criteria because I have talked to many people and many administrators and I can tell you this is both fair and reasonable and on the average West Covina is a pre- ferred place to work. I am sure someone can go and get someone • that is a dissidents:. that has worked here and would say 'no, I wouldn't want to work there" but talk to the people in Chino or Bakersfield or even in this area of the galley and I think you would find the people very pleased to work in this City. So again' the fact remains that number one, the money thing is first with me at the present moment, not because this is the criteria of honest, loyal, faithful service, because it is not. These are human qualities and I don't pretend to say these human qualities require a mechanical process such as money, but that is the award at the moment, and there are other awards also, the building is one, and I think there are some very fine Department people here. If the employees of this city were faced with the same decisions that the teachers in the West Covina school system faced when 56 were dropped, whatever the reasons may be, I was not in on the discussions, all I know is that 56 were dropped off the payroll and if this happens to be the criteria I think you would find that the employees of this City would see things a little differently; or if they had worked for any of the aerospace industries where they are taking cuts. .Those at North American that were retained took a 12% cut - so the economic atmosphere at the present moment is not conducive to the expenditure of funds. I would also be quick to say in the final analysis, as really an immature approach to this because we don't put in full time on this and this body and this Board have to fall back on the advice of our administrators - the City Manager and his staff - and the question comes very strongly then if they can't produce, then of course they go under the block themselves. That is the name of the game, I feel as far as political action is concerned. As a result we have to lean very heavily on these people, My first question is what kind of dollars do we have in the City treasury? And I do.not _ :disagree with Councilman Young's approach, I think it is more humanistic than what I am presenting at the present moment and I don't like the role I am playing, but I will go ahead and play it because I believe it. Councilman Young: I thoroughly admire the direct and blunt approach of Councilman Lloyd and I think I agree with probably about 95/ of what he has to say, but the fact of the matter is here we sit - we have the Legislature about to slap another le, tax on gasoline (none of which is for salaries) but we have had constant increases and overhauls of tax structure at the Federal level, State level, County level, and all around us and we have given the City Manager one increase to work with in the last 10 years and I am not sitting here advocating a tax increase by any means. I agree with Councilman Lloyd - I don't want to increase taxes in this City if we can possibly avoid it, yet we sit here and we have the West Covina Disposal coming along asking for a 65/ increase and I wouldn't at all be surprised if they get something, not 65% but something, and we sit here participating in . these things and continue to saddle the City Manager with the same structure he has had to work with since 1968 and that was a special park tax which is a restricted fund, and prior to that nothing since 1958. So everyone around us has recognized this except the City of West Covina and this is why I am saying it is not out of the question and this is why I am saying we have to look to the service we are expected to render and the money that we have to spend in order to render a proper service to the citizens of West Covina and then find the money to do it with. We are talking in degrees here. I agree I don't want to raise taxes but I don't think the Council of West Covina has been irresponsible in the 14 years I have lived here in that area. - 5 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Six JOINT MEETING WITH PER'SONNEL.BOARD Councilman Lloyd: May I,oay there are special assessments which Mr. Aiassa is aware of and which if we balanced out with some of these other places having had tax raises ancl.:not having access to these special assessment.°districts, you would find out taxes would be higher. Secondly, we have had a phenomenal population rise which of course accounts for our tax base going up with the purchasing power, etc. So all that you have said, while it is in some way directly apropos in other ways there are other areas which tend to aid in revenue sources so what you have said is not totally applicable in this case. But be that as it may, right for the purpose of this discussion, I am going to say as Attorneys say - stipulate that we will accept that. Mayor Chappell: I think there is one area that we have been very fortunate in and that is the fact that the County Assessor's office assesses property in West Covina pretty liberally and our sales taxes*, up until the last year have grown real strong. Mr. Aiassa: With a couple of stipulations - one, I think the economics in total and it is kind of hard to say because it is like saying what caused the earthquake, etc., but when you are looking at the base dollar,. which a good percentage of the cities and school dis- -.ricts have survived on is the assessment - well we had one year where.Mr. Watson had to pay back several million dollars. One major factor is that we have retained a small staff. The staff percentagewise that we have in our City is not the same in number as in other cities, it is larger in other cities. We have also maintained a limited number of part-time service and they do not carry fringe benefits. And I think one of the best items that we have used is the sales tax and that is the implementation of improving the base sales and home purchasing over the years. One of the other items that gave us some assurance was having other people fund the bills on two and three-way programs, but now that is coming to the road of no return because these agencies are also strapped with fifty-two million dollars of deficits and are now stopping the use of monies in various areas. These funds will not be readily available to us. And up to this time we ran a rather model T car venture and right now we are better than that, we did incur overhead, a $200,000 expenditure which was established several years ago and which we also understand, like everything else, you have to pay the price if you progress and advance. We also have had some good sound annexations and the seven story Home Savings Building - these have helped us, and we hope by 1971 Bren Company will be pretty well underway plus Macco Corporation. Our big play for 1971 will be the upgrading of the CBD area. This will be a two-way phase improvement; 1 - you will be increasing your assessed valuation by a large diget and also increasing your capacity of sales. When you have a large display and a large area of sales it almost triples or quadtriples the capacity that is now working within the Plaza area. But one other thing we must consider) our percentage of sales compared to last year as of this year in December is down. It may go up a bit in January and February, but so far it is down.+ (Councilman Nichols arrived at 8015 P.M. and Mr. Aiassa apologized for having forgotten he arranged to pick him up, thus causing his delay in arriving for the meeting on time.) Mr. Faunce: In the coming year we are going to be faced with something new that the cities have never gone through before and that) in our City will be three employee groups. And I am quite certain that each of those groups will come well prepared when they sit down for negotiations - with figures, facts and comparisons. I believe that the City has to be able to have its own facts and figures to present to compare with what the employees have. They will come in with very 6 CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Seven JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD well prepared briefs and I think we are going to have to have outside help and I am not talking about a complete salary classifi- cation but the salary survey is what concerns us. Particularly Police and Fire will want to compare with the City of Los Angeles and the County of Los Angeles, and with the freeways going in that is a valid reason for wanting too. With the Pomona Freeway,, the Foothill Freeway - they have access to the large cities. The thing that concerns the Personnel Board is the criteria to be used in the establishment of the Salary Survey. I also think the Fringe Benefit Survey should be undertaken at the same time, because these things should all be in one package. The total salary classification - I don't think is so necessary. Our relationship with the employees has been wonderful and I am sure it will continue to be that, but there are going to be three groups to work with now and this is why I think we should be totally prepared. Chairman Tice: Yes, I think from past discussions we are generally in accord with regard to the need of a salary survey but not the need for a full scale classification survey. Mr. Sanborn: It should also be pointed out that we have never had a full fringe benefit study made. Chairman Tice: When I first came on the Board I asked for one and the City Manager wanted to make it an inhouse study.. Mr. Sanborn: Fringe benefits are approaching somewhere near 30/ of total payroll costs and I_think the Board feels generally if funds are available for a study of that type that is one of the most important areas that should be studied. Mr. Sornborger: To have a Fringe Benefit study per se is rather unusual, I don't believe it has been undertaken by many cities from the response I receive from various consulting services. It is an unusual approach, but as Mr. Sanborn pointed out, it is approaching 30%, and a prior Board member used to say "salaries can change but fringe benefits are here to stay.BO Chairman Tice: And they do go up continually. In industry it averages between 26 and 27/. So those two items I believe the Board would like to go through with, and the Classification Study we have our doubts on. Councilman Young: The Board basically feels the need or desirability then for an outside consultant? Chairman Tice: Yes, I think we do. It kind of adds a neutral air to it, puts the administration in the middle and makes for a happy situation. • Mr. Sanborn: Mr. Faunce touched on the fact that the employees are separating now and asking for recognition and I don't think the Board wants to give the Council the impression we are frightened by this at all because in fact I think it is just the contrary, but we would like to have the facts at hand to deal with it if the need arises and so we are trying to get some direction because many things are changing. What are we going to be expected to do for you and what tools are we to work with and what are the goals? Mayor Chappell: Do you feel you are coming into an era for the need of hiring negotiators, yourselves? 7 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Eight JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Chairman Tice: It may come to that. It depends on what stand the associations take, we don't know at this point. It has happened in other cities. Mr. Sanborn: I don't think the Board wants to give the Council the impression that because this is a new area it means it is going to cost more money to pay salaries, at least I personally don't feel that way. It is just a matter of being prepared to handle negotiations and deal with it. Mr. Sornborger: I don't feel the Board at this point would in anyway indicate that because as pointed out, we do have a good relationship with the city employees regardless of the fact they have broken into three different groups. From my own personal experience over the years on the Board to be perfectly honestI am sure there is a basic distrust that most employees have and not only in the City of West Covina, of surveys particularly relative to salary, conducted by management. There'.was a time on one survey when the results were tried to be kept completely confidential so that word didn't get out, hoping when presented it would be done so completely and in an unbiased way but I think we need as a tool when working with the employees, a criteria that has been developed by somebody other than management in order to say this is completely objective - what reason would this individual have to give anything but a completely objective report, etc. Councilman Young: Accepting the basic premise at this point that the Board feels an outside consultant should be available - am I correctl is that the Board's consensus? Chairman Tice: Yes. Councilman Young: Do you think this is a matter --that should be handled on a bid .basis, mofe:-=orless like we have before us tonight, where we have several proposals, or do you think it should be on a retainer basis like we have our City Attorney? Which is close to my heart. We have the same City Attorney year after year. I suspect we could put that out for bids each year but for a lot of reasons he builds up a backlog of knowledge to the City year after year - and then pay extra to the consultant for certain types of service, similar to paying the City Attorney for litigation. Do you have any opinions on that? Chairman Tice: I personally feel we should use a bid basis from the standpoint of seeing what is new. These things change. Using an attorney and a consultant, well there is a different approach from the standpoint a consultant may not always keep up with current things as he should. I feel Mr. Gold has done a very fine job but I think we should look at new areas. I don't think we should be tied down with one man for any length of time. Mr. Sornborger: I would concur. I think it is a healthier situation to switch, if advisable, and maybe not strictly on the basis of the cost factor but from the idea if they are in too long they may get the employee feeling the same as they accuse management of. Mr. Aiassa: We have to look on the ensuing year a little different than in the past, because up to this year we did not have the official recognition of any collective group. I feel if we are considering a consultant it has to be considered also on his ability and aptitude of how he can come across on negotiations, because this is where management, the Board and Council, is going to need help. When we get to the 8 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Nine JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD arbitration table. Gold might be fine in surveys but how does he come out in the fireworks of that type of confrontation and we may be faced with this. Councilman Lloyd: Maybe I am not coming across - first of all I think all of this is how much dough do we have to spend m how much help do we have to have - and who is this individual going to serve? There has been some alluding to the fact that the administration must have faith and I guess the legislative body must have faith but just who is this individual going to serve? I think the answer is quite simple at this point. I, as a Councilman, have only one employee and that is the City Manager, at least one -fifth of him. In the final analysis it is really the City Manager and the Department Leads, the Chief of Police, the Fire Chief, etc., these are the people that have to face the problems of employee relations. We can talk till we are blue in the face but that is exactly what you people are here to do, and I am now defining in philosphy what I see your role as, and if I am wrong please correct me - but my reaction to the whole thing is if there is any problem with the employees I am going to go to the City Manager and say, hey why can't you fix it up, that is your problem. I want a happy city and I want it run as cheaply as possible. I don't want to raise taxes, etc. etc. So somewhere along the line the City Manager has to show me through the financial arrangement what is possible. So alright, let's hire Mr. Gold or somebody like that, I have no objections to that, but he becomes an aids to whom? First to the administration people and to.you people in your relationship to us and that is really- the only relationship that exists as far as Council is concerned. So I am saying okay I will go along with that, you want to hire somebody on a consulting basis over a long period of time and I agree, then I say don't bother me with the details, as a Councilman. If you need that kind of help thAi�r that's fine with me, but don't bother me with it. I am firmly convinced in my own mind in the militancy of the world that exists in the United States today and as somewhat of a behavioralist I have to accept the fact that although our employees per se have not been militant, none of us sitting in this room can't say it won't happen here in West Covina, not anymore than any of us can sit here and gay the racial situation that happened in Pomona is not going to happen here in West Covina, because it is. It is going to happen in Covina, Glendora and other areas. These are the problems that George and his successor, and the Personnel Board and their successors, and my successors are going to have to face. So realistically we have to say we have problems coming up in this area so if we have the dough to pay for it m okay, although I am not hot about these studies at all, but I would much rather adopt the attitude if you need that consultant who specializes in the area of employee relations or industrial relations then that is the guy we are going to have to have now because West Covina has arrived at the point of urbanization and we have to give you people the tools to work with or accept the fact that we can't put any demands on you. Actually I don't see the thing totally as a contention situation but on the other hand I do see the problems we are facing and I.think the solution then would be the acquisition of these people. I think these are the mechanics, which you people plus the administrators plus the employee people that deal with these things, must face and must make known to you. My attitude at this point is rather than do this and pour money into it, I would rather put it into an individual such as you are asking for. Mr. Aiassa: The reason the Personnel Board wanted the joint meeting is because of the three things I mentioned earlier and the'most important 9 CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Ten thing is how are we going to face the 71-72 year as far as salaries and employee relations? Up to this time we have had excellent relationship with theaemployees and actually we have had labor relations with our employees but it has been done .informally without distinct cleavage of saying I represent the Firement! Association, I represent the Police Association, but now each one will come in with specialized demands. We might even have an Engineering Group, or a Planning Group. Mr. Faunce: Another thing, for the first time this year we are coming under the law. Previously we never recognized any group, so there is a difference. You don't just sit and listen, you negotiate and confer. Before you just met and conferred but now you have to meet, confer and negotiate. Mr. Aiassa: One further point. I think the Council has the same feelings they always had and that..is if the hard grinding work can be done- through management and the Personnel Board) who are they to quarrel because the end result is what they seek. The only thing is I feel that the thoroughness and completeness of our work is going to depend , whether or not the Council is going to have a complete dress •,.- rehearsal like they used to do at the Planning Commission.and skip the Planning Commission and go direct to the Council, and I don't want that to occur because then we will have everything confronting the Council and then the Personnel Board might as well fold up. Councilman Young: The consensus of the Board and management is that a -consultanV-is a key need in this picture and I agree with Mr. Aiassa, I think we definitely want the Board to function as it has functioned, which is a tougher job than the Council has by a long shot, because we tend to accept the Board's recommendations. I don't know when it has ever been questioned by Council. The Board has brought a consensus of management and employee relations to the Council and we have faced the consensus with a budget that could stand it. An important part of this, is the use of the outside consultant. I would like to ask Ithe question at this point, of the various proposals you have which one do you want? And is this a decision that is expected to be made tonight? Chairman Tice: No, not tonight. Councilman Young: I have looked at the material but probably not as thoroughly as I should. Do you have a distinct recommendation in that area? Mr. Aiassa: A comment which is strictly administration, we are coming into a new era and the first thing is are we going to continue the old program and if so, to what extent? We must and this is something we have not put into these reviews yet with the consultants, the employee -relations dealing directly with the employee groups and for this they will demand a professional fee. I think the Personnel Board should be given some kind of a directive 'if the .use.of a consultant is to be considered, that this be shown as an important item. I don't expect complete shattering experiences with the employee groups whether they are recognized or not officially, but I do expect certain minority problems, or what we call certain classifications that have to be dealt with. Police and Fire consist of the majority, the minority is the number like clerical and certain specialized work such as engineering and planning. These people have to be dealt with personally. They will not listen to just comments of economics, statistics and figures. 10 - .CITY COUNCIL •(ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Eleven JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Councilman Young: What is really desired then is an expression from the Council. Personally I am willing to say -eyes let's have an outside consultant and let's.have him chosen at the discretion of the Board subject to whatever.budgetary'limitations there are. You have to work within that realistic framework. I think that establishes at least one criteria. Mr. Windsor: This is the normal procedure for the selection of the consultant. Mr. Aiassa: With the one exception. We requested them to do a complete salary survey using the same percentile we established in prior years. If the Personnel Board is given a directive,:Aini we have a $4,000 budget, that they be authorized to get the best consultant in the categories and areas we discussed tonight. Councilman Lloyd: Do you want to make that decision or do you want them to make the decision? . Mr. Aiassa: It will be a joint decision between the Personnel Board and management. My staff works directly with the Personnel Board and in turn I work directly with the Board, we get,a consensus and the Board recommends to Council and you make the final decision. Councilman Lloyd: Again, do you have the money? Mr. Aiassa: Yes we have $4,000 in the current budget. Councilman Shearer: How long does a salary survey take? Mr. Aiassa: About 4 months. Councilman Shearer: We don't have 4 months. We will be in budget sessions before the salary survey is done. Mr. Aiassa: If we went for the full study it would take 4 months but if we just go over the 10 or so classifications and a salary survey - about 60 days. The next question is whether we are going to maintain the 10 cities for comparison and whether we are going to use the 65th - 75th percentile. Mayor Chappell: Is that a thing we have to answer for you before we can go further? Mr. Aiassa: I think the Personnel Board should be given the leeway to recommend to Council that they will meet with the consultants and will come back with a package proposal to the Councilmin relation to the $4,000m Mr. Sornborger: Onefcomment.. Over the years the cost on these things have run up considerably. We presented .a bill for $2500. for a complete classification study ten years ago and it didn't seem too bad, but I, as an.indivi- dual have gotten the feeling that unless I had a chance to discuss with the City Council as a whole, we could continue as a Board to present a bill to you for $5,000 - $6,000 and $7,000, tripling the amounts we have been presenting, plus when finished the additional cost for salaries would run into tens of thousands of dollars and you would begin to look at it as here is a, survey costing me several thousand dollars and I end up paying thousands in additional salaries, so what is the need of this? And I began to feel a little uneasy about this whole thing and this is what I wanted clarified. - 11 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Twelve JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD I didn't think, as an individual, I would get anything other than the feeling.I am getting from the Council right now. Mayor Chappell: The survey gives you an orderly answer and the Consultant takes a little pressure off of your group and our group also. I think employees tend to look at somebody sitting on the outside as more neutral than staff. Councilman Young: I am willing to offer a motion at anytime to effectuate at least this portion of the dis- cussion, authorizing the Board to go ahead within the budgetary limitation stated, to engage a consultant for. such studies as the Board deems in its discretion are desirable for the 1971-72 year. That is a loose motion. Councilman Lloyd: Can we add to that "or to acquire them on a retainer. basis." Councilman Young: I am happy to add that because it gives them greater flexibility and I think that is what is exactly needed. Councilman Lloyd: I will second that motion, Mr. Aiassa: One comment - the Personnel Board cannot hire, they will formally recommend to the Council. Councilman Nichols: Mr. Mayor, I have two observations I would like to make before voting on this matter. First, we are moving very late into this area this year to begin talking about bringing in a consultant whose work would have any value to us by July 1. Our experience in the past has been even when we began with our experienced and friendly consultant that when we get him going in March and early April we are into July and August before we get any definitive answers, so I would caution about going too far afield and getting some person in to serve us who has never dealt with the City of West Covina and has no knowledge of our on -going problems and hds done no work for us before. I think we might find that the value of that service wouldn't become apparent until after the time of need. The other thought I have and my own thinking corresponds with that .of Mr. Tice, I think we are treading on somewhat shaky ground when we attempt to use the analogy of the legal resource person, the person on retainer, in terms of a salary,.consultant. I feel quite strongly a salary consultant's value is only partly=to management in a direct sense, the other half of his value to management is indirect at best and that is that he is accepted on face value by the employee groups; that the employee groups believe this consultant is ip fact one who is not a hired gun but a con- tracting person that has many interests and many masters and that his findings are truly objective. I think ovex a long period of time familiarity with a consultant tends to give:a situation where it becomes somewhat suspect to the employee groups. I think if •you take that into consideration you may find the retainer concept, while applicable to the attorney who is a servant of management exclusively, may not be equally applicable to the consultant who must be accepted on all fronts in the same sense. I would hope that without disparaging Councilman Lloyd's appreciation of the retainer, it might not apply totally to the consultant. Chairman Tice: On this first item, I think the Board fully realize's we can't do much with the Classifi- cation.Study at this point. We only have approximately ten classifications to review but the Fringe Benefit area was the main thing. - 12 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Thirteen Motion carried on roll call vote as follows: AYES: Councilmen Nichols, Shearer, Young, Lloyd, Mayor Chappell NOES: None ABSENT: None 2) The need to Continue Present City Policy With Respect to Placing all City classes within the 65th to 75th Percentile of Comparison Cities and 3) The need to Continue Using 10 Comparison Cities for Criteria Purposes Councilman Shearer: I feel that if we are hiring a consultant, and I always feel this way, whether he is doing a planning study for the CBD or a General Plan for the City, if we set off beginning to give him a set of rules then he is not really a consultant but just a compiler of data:' I think the consultant should be hired on the basis of a certain amount of freedom. I happened to look at the low bidder - Martyns Associates and I noticed in Martyns proposal he talks -.about salary survey and goes beyond the 10 cities concept saying he would compile data for at least 20 - local private employees, city, county and the. State. He goes beyond the 10 city criteria.' I don't think we should any longer just say that the .10 cities is it and that we have to be at the 65th - 75th percentile of these 10. If that is all we do then I think Mr. Windsor can hire a clerk for a year at what this will cost us, a;nd the clerk can compile that kind of data. I think we have to break,awgy from this hard and fast rule that this is what we are tied into and look at what is fair to the employee of West Covina. The consultant may want to confer with other cities to get some sort of feeling as to how do I stand, am I away out it left field or am I somewhat in step? But if we hire him on the basis and set all the ground rules we are going to get what we ask for and then we might as well do it ourselves. Councilman Nichols: For sometime now I have had a concern on this subject matter and I have felt it is something basic to the work of the Personnel Board and the City Council and the Administration, in terms of salary matters. The history of the use of comparison cities goes back some 10 or 12 years when we had an earlier cluster of cities and for the last 6 or 7 years the so-called 10 city comparison group. It is my recollection that the City of West Covina went to the comparison basis largely because at that time we were growing very rapidly and did not have salary classifications of our own and needed something to anchor the city too. The thought has come to me increasingly that the so-called 10 city comparison, if we really looked into it would be largely invalid today because you go back 8 years and the very things that established the 10 cities as agencies that could reasonably be compared, those same factors are no longer present. When you think of the changes in population, in assessed valuation, in revenues, all of these things that have occurred over the years, there must be some very significant changes so that for us to say in 1971 well yes here are the 10 •cities and we should stay number 3 in these 10 would not be a very prudent thing without looking at it very carefully. I think we have matured as a City to the point where we should not religiously attempt to hold to=any particular criteria any longer as being our Bible that would transcend our own sense of fiscal responsibility and our own sense of judgment. I think we are mature enough today and I think we have a mature Personnel Board, in fact I would say we have as fine a Personnel Board as you could find anywhere, and that we ought to be able to use the 10 cities as an indication, as a value, as a guideline and then shoot for whatever position we feel is right and proper for the City in terms of our fiscal capability and - 13 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Fourteen our staff ability, thereby giving our management and our Personnel Board a greater degree of flexibility in handling these matters. I would not, in conclusion, advocate some major abandonment of the procedure which has been our Bible in salary matters over the years, but I would advocate a notice to all involved that the City Council and its Personnel Board, and its management by policy will stray from the 10 city standards if we deem it is advisable and desirable to do so. Certainly we should state that we will stray to the extent that it is necessary to,maintain the fiscal integrity of the City. I would like to see the direction to the Board stating that the 10 city comparison is our guide but no longer is our Bible. I think that would be the prudent approach to 1971. Councilman Young: I like the comments of both Councilmen and I wonder what the Board's reaction is? Chairman Tice: We have discussed a little of this and my own feeling is as Councilman Nichols brings out, we should have it as a factor but it should not be the underlying factor as it was used in the past, there should be other factors in making the evaluation. I don't think we can hold to this anymore as the main factor. All our increases have been geared almost 100% on this type of thing. Councilman Young: Mr. Mayor - is there a comment from the City Manager on the 10 city comparison, particularly in light of the comments just made? Mr. Aiassa: I have two comments. One, I know the Fire Department is not very happy with the 10 cities and I also think the Police Department is not happy and we have now come to the crossroads as to which will be fair cities and which will not. I think it is time the Council puts the ecnomics of the City, its ability to pay, the type of community it is in relation to crime and fires and things like that,. that we bring all this into focus - what we are dealing with in relation to our City. I sure couldn't compare myself to the City of E1 Monte. And there are other cities that have far different problems, cities that have large industrial patches, and large minority groups and things like that. These are the things that I think play a major role when it comes to working relations, also the condition of the facilities employees have to work in. Councilman Young: I am willing to suggest that there is a con- sensus on Items 2 and 3. Mayor Chappell: I think this last January pay raise, if you remember when the employees were talking to us the 65th -'75th percentile really locked us in and I think we can't get locked in that way anymore with the type of income our City is getting from the various tax bases. The 10 city comparison I have always objected too. I objected to it when on the School Board. In my business of insurance I travel around a lot and run into various private enterprise businesses and I am not just talking about . secretarial work, but I have been told by businessmen that "you guys are killing us, you have all these holidays and fringe benefits and our people have to work, you are supposed to be serving our community yet you are closed down and we are working. I have to give my 2 or 3 men extra pay raises because you are getting them over at the City and we can't keep up and we are getting pressure from our employees, etc." As one of the people here pointed out we have to bring in free enterprise. We can't bring it in on Fire and Police but there are other things we can bring in. I think they have to recognize we want them properly paid, we don't want any second class employees or any underpaid employees, we want them to be paid what they should be paid. I think we have to move out of our sphere. We have talked about this before and it is good it - .14 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Fifteen has come to a head this evening, because it looks like all five of us have given you some guidelines along that line and a much broader area to work in. If we can't pay what the County Firemen gets,' well when that man is in some northern part of the County and he gets transferred to someplace 60 or 80 miles away, well that is worth., some money and they sure do move them around. I think our firemen have to recognize the most we can transfer them is 3 or 4 miles and I think these things are worth money. ` Travel time and all that is worth money. These are all things that we should take into consideration.when going into this. I am sure the Council will always pay the employees what we can afford to pay them, but we are coming to the point now where we have to say we can't pay more money without going into the red. I meet with several different Mayors each month and that is the biggest bone of contention right now, the competitiveness of pay. We are just running away with inflation; our citizens are be to be bothered/they would all like to come and work for the City because now it is the place to earn your money. Councilman Shearer: I would like to make a few comments in defense of civil service employees, I happen to be one of them. There seems to be the fear that if we don't give our employees what they are asking we are going to have trouble. I don't think we can run a business that way. We seem to fear strikes. That is the tenure these days in all governmental agencies. I think there is a great deal.of loyalty among the service employees and they will recognize the facts of life as they are. What can the City afford? What can my employer afford? I don't think we will see mass open rebellion. I believe we will have some mumblings. The Governor submitted his budget with absolutely no pay increases and sure there were a few people that mumbled, elected officials in employee organizations made noises because of the pay and because that is what they are supposed to do as elected officials of the employee organizations. I haven't noticed any moral let down:in the organization. There is no mass exodus to go to work for somebody else who pays a lot higher because there are not just that many jobs in the cities that might be No. 1, 2 or 3 higher, there are not that many job openings to be :had:. I don't think we should base our recommendations on the fear that somebody is going to be unhappy, but approach it strictly on what is fair. I think we have loyalty among our employees and if we don't then maybe there is something to be said on the other side of the coin. What is fair is fair and not depending on what somebody else is able to afford. Mr. Aiassa: I had comments from outside employees who were making $50 to $150 a month more than City employees up to 3 or 4 years ago. I remember not too many years ago I lost a lot of my employees to private industry for that extra revenue, better advantages, more promotions, etc. I feel in essence we have some very dedicated employees - that you couldn't equal even if you were able to go into the competitive market. These people will serve and die in a municipal agency or governmental agency. I can't say that completely about the Police and Fire because some of them change their vocations, but the rank and file of the employees are just as dedicated and just as valuable today as they were 10 years ago, with the one exception we now have the younger groups that have been in private industry and they now want the benefits of industry. It is not the older people who suffered through the dry period when we didn't have salary and we had a 45/ turnover. The majority of our employees are not the kind that cause labor rousing and raise cain. You have some very dedicated employees. I just can't get over excited with some people saying - well I would like to get into city government because those same people when we:were beating the bushes to get them just to apply couldn't be found, whereas now we have 35 to 40 people applying for a job. As soon as the outside labor market opens up we wi11 lose those people. - 15 - • CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Sixteen Councilman Lloyd: I have worked in both arenas and suffice to say that anybody that wants to go on the same criteria, anybody hiring people, will tell you that you have a situation in the City of West Covina which is a pre ferred situation. I don't see any reason why the employees therefore should fall down and worship the ground or anything like that and we may be very foolish but I will say flat out that this is a good thing. We also have an obligation to our employees but -it is also my con- sidered opinion that they are lucky. I think it is a good place to be and if you have 40 or 50 people applying for jobs it has to tell you something because things are real tough on the outside. Mr. Aiassa: I think the employees know that, there is no question about that. Councilman Shearer: That is the point I was trying to make. I think they know that and,appreciate that they have something in civil service that they don't have on the outside and if they are honest with themselves this is of value. This is of value to me and I appreciate it and I am not banging on the door saying - gee Governor Reagan you didn't include 5% or whatever in your budget therefore I am quitting and neither are most of our employees. I wasn't trying to be defensive but I think if we are straight forward our employees will face the facts. If it is something they want which we can't afford they will understand, and if they are not that kind of people then they can go where the grass is greener. Councilman Young: I think we are all thoroughly appreciative of the employee relations we have had up till now. I am sure we have negotiating groups forming now but they are forming out of the same people we have been working with over the years. And I have felt over the last few years that I have taken an interest in it that appropriate restraints have been shown by the employees and appropriate meeting of the minds have been reached each year and as far as the comment made by Mr. Aiassa, we all agree that they are not labor rousers and I can recall occasions when I was on the Personnel Board when the employees and Board faced up to things and had some rather blunt confrontations. Sure we are moving into a new era but we are dealing with the same people and any comments we have made have not been intended to reflect dis- trust or a spanking or anything like that. Councilman Lloyd: Mr. Mayor, I have this to offer as a motion on Items 2, 30 4, and 5. That the Personnel Board come back with recommendations to the Council after consultation with the administration as to the 65th - 75th percentile and that they reevaluate that area; and in Item 3 they reevaluate the requirement of the 10 comparison cities, and Item 4 concerning the cost:of salary and fringe benefit increases, again that they come forward with that; and Item 5 that in dealing with formal negotiators we pretty well stated it and that they come forward with that. Chairman Tice: Item 5 - we don't have too much of a choice, that is set out by law now. Councilman Young: I will second that motion. Councilman Nichols: It was my thought that the Council had pretty well directed to the Personnel Board its sentiments in terms of Items 2 and 3 and yet the motion indicated that the Personnel Board should come back to Council with some type of recommendations. I wonder what type of recommendation are we seeking? Are we seeking a recommendation? I am not. - 16 - •CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Seventeen Councilman Lloyd: To answer your question. Prior to your arrival and since that time we talked about the 65th - 75th percentile and what we are saying to the Board is, is this still a realistic figure? It might be 50/ and it could be 80%. This Council is questioning Iswhether the 10 comparison cities currently being used are usable. We are asking the Board to give us that information. What is the best way to go? As suggested here, should we go into the businesses in West Covina, Covina, etc.,? Should we go into large industries such as Convair, Aer6jet, Minneapolis -Honeywell? Should we consider other employee areas and other governmental agencies or should it strictly be just the cities? Councilman Nichols: I understand that but it was my understanding that we were simply indicating to the Personnel Board that there need not be in the future a rigid interpretation of these official figures. Councilman Lloyd: I think that is true. Councilman Nichols: I am saying in essence I don't see the appropriateness of asking them to turn around and recommend to us if in fact that is what we meant. Mayor Chappell: We voted in 1969 to go on the 65th to 75th percentile and this was a vote by Council. I think now these gentlemen are going to have to come back to us and say I don't think we are able to maintain that status and we are going to have to vote again. Councilman Nichols: That is where we differ. I think that is a policy decision that Council should make and we shouldn't be passing the buck. Mayor Chappell: But we got it from them originally or the City Manager. Councilman Nichols: Oh no we didn't get the recommendation from them to adopt a 10 city comparison - this is strictly a policy matter. I don't see how we can expect our Personnel Board to tell us whether we should or should not stray from the 65th - 75th percentile range. If we are saying for them to look into it and compile data, etc., but I feel this is a role this Council originally played and set up and the Board has been faithfully following that all through the years. The controversies within the City family have been - well are we within this range, or are we not, and gentlemen for us now to say you fellows look at this again and you tell your elected officials whether or not your city can afford this? In my judgment this is not for the Personnel Board to do. This is something for management to say to the City Council. Councilman Lloyd: I asked a specific question of the City Manager - who do you want to do it. Do you want them to do it or do you want to do it and he said he worked with them. Mr. Aiassa: We work in association with the Board because my staff coordinates their activities and work. Councilman Lloyd: That is what I asked and that is why I put it in that way. Mr. Aiassa: I think your comments, Mr. Nichols, are valid on this basis. The formula that we finally follow will have to be decided by the Council but it is the responsibility of my staff and the Personnel Board - 17 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Page Eighteen to recommend to Council the alternatives that might be adopted in lieu of what is now existing. Councilman Nichols: Let me make one final observation. The Council . unanimously said we do not feel that the Personnel Board or the City Council in the future should be bound by the 10 city comparison which automatically then rules out the binding of any percentile. Now we are turning around and asking the Board to make a study with staff to recommend to us whether or not we should follow these percentiles. It just seems to me what we are asking the Board to pass on what we have already given as direction to the Board. Now am I so wrong in my understanding that is what we said? Councilman Young: Mr. Mayor, why don't we defeat this motion and not even have a motion as to Items 2 and 3 at least and possibly the other items that the motion relates too, because this is where Mr. Nichols is -hung up and I agree with him to some extent. We do have a consensus on this and it is well understood by the Board, management and City Council, that we have this consensus of understanding, so what is the motion for? At least with regards to Items 2 and 3. The consensus of opinion is that we are going on basic fairness and basic competitiveness as it fits the needs of the City of West Covina, which means we are giving the Personnel Board a greater burden than before, because we have taken away the security blanket by removing the .criteria cities. If I was on the Board right now I would be scafed,.- to death. Mr. Aiassa: I think the Board would like to substitute something for that 65th-75th percentile,; maybe a substitute of 10 cities. Mr. Sornborger: In substituting in a way for the 65th-75th percentile, actually I think the statement that Councilman Shearer made was that assuming we hire a consultant we are hiring for his recommendations and historically we have offered in the way of salary a quality differential factor and why was this in there? Simply because, as Mr. Aiassa stated, yearly we have had what we considered a quality employee to make up for the differential in numbers of employees. We operate by far fewer than the City of Alhambra, so they are paid for it. If we disregarded the percentile factors and outlined to our consultant that our dilemna is this, for the. first time we have had to cut back in hiring in furnishing salary -increases - as you know we had to cut back hiring and this is the first time we have ever had to do that. So if the consultant knows this and also knows the dilemna of other cities and we say we have a quality employee, we work with fewer employees and want to keep it that way, that automatically sets the guidelines for the consultant to come back and tell us what we have to pay and we make our recommendation and we don't have to play with percentile factors. This is the way I see it. Councilman Young: Which is Item 1 on the agenda. Councilman Lloyd: I was under the impression that I _ was-- ao- ng `-`'__ to expedite, but I didn't. Let°`s vote the motion down and somebody come up with something else. Motion failed on roll call vote as follows: AYES: Councilman Lloyd NOES: Councilmen Nichols, Shearer; Young, Mayor.=Chappell ABSENT: None �-*M CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Nineteen JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Councilman Nichols: Mr. Mayor, if I may observe something in collaboration with what Councilman Young indicated, the Council has given its feeling in unanimity to the Personnel Board and the thrust of the • feeling was to the extent that it may be necessary to maintain the fiscal integrity of the City and to provide equity in salary ad- justments the Council will support the concept of deviating from the rigid application of the 10 city comparison and the 65th-75th percentile. It seems to me and I would hope I am not sounding dogmatic, but it would seem to me that they should provide for this the adequate guidelines to the Board. If the City Manager in working with the Personnel Board wants to devise some other tools or some firm guidelines out of this discussion tonight, I would be most pleased to receive these, but I don't envision that the Council really needs to be more specific or more definitive than we have this evening. I think we have given a great deal of latitude and encourage you gerrElemen to take it from there. If Mr. Aiassa and staff feel they would like to work in a different direction with the Board for some other guidelines, be our guest. Councilman Young: I would make a motion that we concur in the remarks just made by Councilman Nichols. Seconded by Councilman Shearer. Councilman Shearer: Hasa past Council specifically established the 10 City crieteria? Councilman Nichols: Yes. Councilman Shearer: Then we have to do something tonight if we deviate from it. Do we have to repeal previous Council action? Mr. Aiassa: I don't suggest that Council repeal until the Personnel Board reviews and when they bring in their recommendations, that is the time you might take action. Mr. Faunce: One further comment. We came before you because I feel we want to get out from the 65th-75th percentile and the 10 city comparison. I believe we would like to have the Council say that is the direction we are going and not asking for any recommenda- tions coming back from us, then we would hire the consultant to establish the criteria® Councilman Nichols: Mr. Faunce: Councilman Nichols: Mr. Faunce: That is what we have just done. But just what recommendations do you want us to come back with? Do you want a recommendation on the comparison cities or what? No. Our recommendation. would be on the hiring of a consultant who would establish the criteria. Mr. Aiassa: Council doesn't want to abolish something. that is existing unless they know what is coming forth by the Personnel Board and staff that is an adequate substitute. Chairman Tice: At present I don't believe we have any agree- ment.amongst ourselves. We have to get ideas and discuss. - 19 - CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Twenty JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD Mr. Aiassa: The Council was emphatic enough to say we will not follow the 65th-75th percentile or the 10 cities. • Motion carried on roll call vote as follows: AYES: Councilmen Nichols, Shearer, Young, Lloyd, Mayor Chappell NOES: none ABSENT: None Mayor Chappell: I believe we discussed Item 4 rather thoroughly; and Item 5 has been covered. Chairman Tice: Yes it has been discussed and we know that we can't give you a recommendation for a 20 ; increase when we know the City can't afford it. Councilman Shearer: I think you should be reasonable but not make a physical analysis, let us face the responsi- bility. Are we going to go along with 8/ when it means a 5(, tax rate or cut it to 4/. Chairman Tice: I don't quite see how we can divorce ourselves and do a thorough job on it. Mr. Sanborn: And what this item refers to, well we can spend a lot of time and effort on this and recommend something and Council can come back and say we don't have the funds, whereas having:Some direction we:'.will not be going in the wrong direction. Mayor Chappell: I believe we have covered all the items rather thoroughly and I think we have had a very good meeting, one of the best we have ever had. Councilman Nichols: I would hate to pay for this talent. ADJOURNMENT Motion by Councilman Lloyd, seconded by Councilman Young and carried, adjourning meeting at 9:35 P.M. APPROVED: MAYOR • ATTEST: CITY CLERK