02-16-1971 - Regular Meeting - MinutesMINUTES OF THE ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING OF CITY COUNCIL
CITY OF WEST COVINA, CALIFORNIA
FEBRUARY 16, 1971.
The adjourned regular meeting of the City Council was called to
order by Mayor Ken Chappell at 7:35 P.M. in the West Covina
Council Chambers. The Pledge of Allegiance was led by the Mayor.
ROLL CALL
Present: Mayor Chappell; Councilmen Shearer, Young, Lloyd
Councilman Nichols (Arrived at 8:15 P.M.)
Others Present: Personnel Board: Chairman Tice; Messrs. Faunce,
Sornborger, Sanborn
(Francis Zoelle (Absent)
George Aiassa, City Manager
H. R. Fast, Public Services Director
Ray Windsor, Administrative Assistant
Ross Nammar, Administrative Assistant
Lela Preston, City Clerk
Jim Millis (Street Dept., Representative)
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
(Mayor Chappell welcomed the members of the Personnel Board and
suggested that since the attendance at the meeting was at a minimum
it might be better to move the meeting to the City Manager's
conference room, where a more informal type of meeting could take
place. There were no objections, meeting transferred to City
Manager's conference room.)
Mr. Aiassa: Mr. Mayor prior to the start of the joint meeting
I would like to advise Council that we do have
two people on the State Transportation Committee:
Councilman Jim Lloyd and George Wakefield, City
Attorney.
JOINT MEETING DISCUSSION ITEMS
1) The need for Classification
and Salary Survevs - Utilizina Outside Consultants
Chairman Tice: Mr. Mayor and members of Council at the last
couple of Board meetings, members brought up
questions regarding the criteria we have
been following for the past several years. One of the big items
questioned is do we want to maintain the 3rd and 4th position in the
ten city comparison? Also do we want .to continue with the ten cities
in comparing? On the agenda presented to you we have six -items we
would like to discuss and receive direction on. Beginning with Item 1,
there is some question in our minds whether we want to go through
another Classification Study; the Salary Survey is probably necessary
and the Fringe Benefit Analysis. We wondered if Council had any
thoughts in this area.
Mr. Aiassa: I might advise Council that this afternoon we
0 had a reading of the budget and as you know
we budgeted $6,000 for this type of work
and used $1500.plus for the last survey completed by Mr. Gold. So we
have approximately $4,000 to spend in this category.
Mayor Chappell: Mr. Aiassa, will you bring us up-to-date for
the need of these studies?
Mr. Aiassa: About every 2 years we go through a job
classification analysis as well as a salary
survey.' Last year we went through a salary
survey anIq not a major classification study. Every 2 years we
CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Two
normally come in for a reclassification study and a salary review.
The three important things are: 1 - whether the Council and
Personnel Board will stay with the policy of the 65 - 75th percen-
tile;--and-2 - the number of cities we have been using for comparison;
and 3 - whether or not the City should review the overall Fringe
•Benefits in the terms of what the City has already granted and what
other cities are granting and what we may be forced to grant if put
to us by the various employee groups. Finally and most important,
there are certain salaries we did not adjust in the January period
and are,-. normally scheduled for an analysis and reevaluation in
July 1971. There are about ten classifications, no more. These
would probably need special consideration whether we did a survey or
not.
So there are 3 things you are faced with,
1 - whether you. want to stay with the 65th - 75th percentile;
2 - continue using the comparison cities used before in establishing,
the criteria; and 3 - a complete review of the Fringe Benefits.
Councilman Young: The key question involved is, of course,
what the employees themselves think about
these various matters. This is very
important.
Chairman Tice: Yes, but we may not be able to take the
employees, wishes into consideration with the
situation the way it is today economically.
Councilman Young: But at least we should know what they are
thinking.
Mr. Aiassa: I can only relate the little input I receiv-
ed at the_last..meeting with the employees'
representatives which may go by default.in
recognizing the Police and Fire Associations, because this will make
the employees group probably only a working liaison group but not a
policy or determining group that can actually represent the employees.
At present they would like to see a rather complete analysis of
classifications and salaries in 1971-72.
Councilman Lloyd: I think there is a more burning question
than what the employees want or even what do
we want. First you have to look at the pro-
jected income of the City and since the major percentage is for
personnel then we would have to turn around and say what is our
economic base? That is to begin with. And after we have looked it
over I think the next.thing we must look at is the total community,
which frankly this Board and Council represents, the people of this
community and of course the percentage factor of those city
�loyees that reside in the ;City that fall: into.,-- this bracket. So -
we Crust therefore - how say: ,chat is the economic climate in which we
are talking about raises and projections, etc., in which we want to
lie. Then I think we can come back and begin to evaluate how much we
want to give to people commensurate with that very fine line which
the people in Personnel are continually walking which is where do we
• have the breaking point where we are going to have dissatisfaction
that will affect the overall efficiency and therefore the economy/
that can be involved in the running of the City. So first we need to
know what are our projections and then when we know what kind of
dough we have to work with we can then start making these value
judgmentswhether we want to be at the 70th percentile or the 50th
and whether the criteria of these ten cities that we have used in the
past are any longer applicable. Maybe we should be comparing with
Baldwin Park, Covina, Pomona, etc., rather than those we have been
comparing with. That is the way I see it. First isthere money and
then we can talk about these other things which are variables.
Councilman Shearer: I agree 100/ with that. I think we have
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CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
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Page Three
to consider the most important - what can we afford to do? Sure we
would like to do certain things but if our funds won't stretch? I
would like to ask a question. The Classification Study seems to be
quite a whooper in cost m anywhere from $3,000 to $21,OOOo What,
briefly, did we get two years ago for whatever amount of money was
spent? What did we spend two years ago,for a Classification Study?
Mr. Aiassa: $6800. The criteria report received is the
one you received in your packet. (Explained
in full what0as provided for that amount of
money.)
Mayor Chappell: And that is a complete study? (Answer: Yes)
Is it normal to come back two years later
and have another study?
Mr. Aiassa: What Council has to understand is if you are
going to change or review job classifications
it has to be done in complete total, because
if not you will have a lopsided set up. Now some of the classifications
and jobs will not need a great deal of change but some will, and these
happen to be scattered throughout the 80 plus classifications. From
time to time there are positions that have to be revalued as to their
performance and duties to be sure they are working and performing
within the classifications. If not, then the salary will reflect that
also.
Councilman Shearer: Two years ago did we get a report based on the
job requirements - say Maintenance Man I is
worth a certain amount in relationship to
Maintenance Man II and in relationship to the Foreman and the
Superintendent, etc., ?
Chairman Tice: 'Yes we had a complete study.
Councilman Shearer: I would seriously question the reliability
of that report if two years later again we
have to figure out are these people in proper
rank? It may be one thing that the cost of living keeps increasing....
Mr. Faunce: If you have a big change in a job then you
would have to have a complete survey. I
think we might be able to get away with the
10 or 15 needed if they did not disturb the entire structure. If
they do then you have to start all over again.
Councilman Young: You are suggesting, that the work that has
been done by the salary consultant then
could be done on an inhouse basis? Or am I
jumping too far on that?
Chairman Tice: I think where we do have these discrepancies
we should have a consultant to look at these,
but I don't think we need a whole complete
review at this point.
Mr. Windsor: May I make a'comment to the effect that
Mr. Aiassa set up this machinry several years
ago to take care of this problem and that is
the Administrative Review Committee, which the Council introduced
again this year and appropriated some funds to review those
classifications they had some problems with and the question is now
how often do you do that before having another major classification
study? Every consultant that I talked to was quite surprised that we
were asking for quotations on a complete study after such a short
period but we did it to actually show you what the cost would be.
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JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Mr. Aiassa: We had it broken down as to cost so you
could determine how deep or far you wanted
to go.
. Councilman Young: I am about to rebuke something here. I
somewhat agree with my fellow Councilman
Jim Lloyd and Councilman Shearer and somewhat
disagree in the sense that we first have to look at the money. I
think we have to first look -at the service we are expected to render
and look at what we have to do to render that service. I think
salaries that are competitive are essential. For example in the
Police Department area, I -don't mind having young policemen but I want
some tired old veterans on there too with cool heads. I don't want
them all going off to be police chiefs somewhere else or patrolmen
in Los Angeles. So I think our responsibility is to find the money
if we have toy even if it comes to the point of raising taxes. We
have a service to render and we have to do it. This :is by way of a
partial rebuttal, a philosophical rebuttal to what has been said.
The question that has been coming into my
mind, having worked on the Board with these gentlemen other than with
Mr. Tice, and having faced some of these concerns, I know how hard the
Personnel Board works and the tough front line job it is'with the
employees and I am wondering about rethinking this thing in terms of
a consultant on call to the Board as needed within certain budgetary
limits on an annual basis® Mr. Gold has apparently worked out very
well. He started in about'67 and he is still with us and we have a
good employee -employer relationship and I think Mr. Gold prob•,ably has
a lot to do with it. He was quite prominently mentioned, for example,
at the Firemen's function which Mayor Chappell and I attended last
night, which is good, particularly when the firemen didn't get the
good raise the police did at this junction. It is a thought that we
might consider, a retainer type thing like we have with the City
Attorney. It has virtually worked out that way anyway so why don't:.
we face it and do it and then when the Administrative Review
Committee feels a Classification Study is needed we have the consult-
ant on a retainer basis and have an understanding as to the
additional hours that might be required and go from there.
Councilman Lloyd: I don't know why I can't find clients that
have that approach because I like it.
However, on the other side of the fence I
say we are facing a very antagonistic political climate at this
moment. We should be critically aware of the fact that there are a
lot of people that did not get raises and a)lot of people do not
have jobs and are no longer working overtime and all the test of it.
You used a word which frankly terrifies me/both as a politician and
as a pragmatist. I have no intentions of being involved in any tax
rise. I want economies that will go long, far and wide before I
consider, as a legislator, a tax rise. I can't face my people. I
can't face even my own people working in my office with the
salaries that are being paid by the City. I have already said this
and no one should be offended by it and I can understand the why of
this. I understand the structure of the mechanism but I also see
• other things which I think are of value and maybe they are not worth
a darn and if so let's find out. I know you people have considered
them because I have spoken to you about these things. I also know
the administration has considered its 'In (4orking.-with*eA ties and
industry in Southern California and working in this building or in
any of the environments of the City of West Covina as being
oppresive, I can point to Baldwin Park as one which is certainly not
even remotely close and apparently the people in Covina think their
building is inadequate and it is better than what we operated with
for many years, but granted it is not good as far as the environment
is concerned. As far as the leniency of this administrative
operation here under the City Manager and the Department Heads - let
.me say this, we frankly, and I do get around to many of these cities,
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JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
and I don't need 10 cities to set criteria because I have talked
to many people and many administrators and I can tell you this is
both fair and reasonable and on the average West Covina is a pre-
ferred place to work. I am sure someone can go and get someone
• that is a dissidents:. that has worked here and would say 'no, I
wouldn't want to work there" but talk to the people in Chino or
Bakersfield or even in this area of the galley and I think you
would find the people very pleased to work in this City.
So again' the fact remains that number one, the money thing is
first with me at the present moment, not because this is the
criteria of honest, loyal, faithful service, because it is not.
These are human qualities and I don't pretend to say these human
qualities require a mechanical process such as money, but that is
the award at the moment, and there are other awards also, the
building is one, and I think there are some very fine Department
people here.
If the employees of this city were faced
with the same decisions that the teachers in the West Covina
school system faced when 56 were dropped, whatever the reasons may
be, I was not in on the discussions, all I know is that 56 were
dropped off the payroll and if this happens to be the criteria
I think you would find that the employees of this City would see
things a little differently; or if they had worked for any of the
aerospace industries where they are taking cuts. .Those at
North American that were retained took a 12% cut - so the economic
atmosphere at the present moment is not conducive to the expenditure
of funds. I would also be quick to say in the final analysis, as
really an immature approach to this because we don't put in full
time on this and this body and this Board have to fall back on the
advice of our administrators - the City Manager and his staff - and
the question comes very strongly then if they can't produce, then
of course they go under the block themselves. That is the name of
the game, I feel as far as political action is concerned. As a
result we have to lean very heavily on these people, My first
question is what kind of dollars do we have in the City treasury?
And I do.not _ :disagree with Councilman Young's approach, I think
it is more humanistic than what I am presenting at the present
moment and I don't like the role I am playing, but I will go ahead
and play it because I believe it.
Councilman Young: I thoroughly admire the direct and blunt
approach of Councilman Lloyd and I think I
agree with probably about 95/ of what he
has to say, but the fact of the matter is here we sit - we have the
Legislature about to slap another le, tax on gasoline (none of which
is for salaries) but we have had constant increases and overhauls
of tax structure at the Federal level, State level, County level, and
all around us and we have given the City Manager one increase to
work with in the last 10 years and I am not sitting here advocating
a tax increase by any means. I agree with Councilman Lloyd - I don't
want to increase taxes in this City if we can possibly avoid it, yet
we sit here and we have the West Covina Disposal coming along asking
for a 65/ increase and I wouldn't at all be surprised if they get
something, not 65% but something, and we sit here participating in
. these things and continue to saddle the City Manager with the same
structure he has had to work with since 1968 and that was a special
park tax which is a restricted fund, and prior to that nothing
since 1958. So everyone around us has recognized this except the
City of West Covina and this is why I am saying it is not out of
the question and this is why I am saying we have to look to the
service we are expected to render and the money that we have to
spend in order to render a proper service to the citizens of West
Covina and then find the money to do it with. We are talking in
degrees here. I agree I don't want to raise taxes but I don't think
the Council of West Covina has been irresponsible in the 14 years
I have lived here in that area.
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JOINT MEETING WITH PER'SONNEL.BOARD
Councilman Lloyd: May I,oay there are special assessments
which Mr. Aiassa is aware of and which if
we balanced out with some of these other
places having had tax raises ancl.:not having access to these special
assessment.°districts, you would find out taxes would be higher.
Secondly, we have had a phenomenal population rise which of course
accounts for our tax base going up with the purchasing power, etc.
So all that you have said, while it is in some way directly apropos
in other ways there are other areas which tend to aid in revenue
sources so what you have said is not totally applicable in this case.
But be that as it may, right for the purpose of this discussion, I am
going to say as Attorneys say - stipulate that we will accept that.
Mayor Chappell: I think there is one area that we have been
very fortunate in and that is the fact that
the County Assessor's office assesses
property in West Covina pretty liberally and our sales taxes*, up until
the last year have grown real strong.
Mr. Aiassa: With a couple of stipulations - one, I think
the economics in total and it is kind of
hard to say because it is like saying what
caused the earthquake, etc., but when you are looking at the
base dollar,. which a good percentage of the cities and school dis-
-.ricts have survived on is the assessment - well we had one year
where.Mr. Watson had to pay back several million dollars. One
major factor is that we have retained a small staff. The staff
percentagewise that we have in our City is not the same in number
as in other cities, it is larger in other cities. We have also
maintained a limited number of part-time service and they do not
carry fringe benefits. And I think one of the best items that we
have used is the sales tax and that is the implementation of
improving the base sales and home purchasing over the years. One
of the other items that gave us some assurance was having other
people fund the bills on two and three-way programs, but now that
is coming to the road of no return because these agencies are also
strapped with fifty-two million dollars of deficits and are now
stopping the use of monies in various areas. These funds will not be
readily available to us. And up to this time we ran a rather model
T car venture and right now we are better than that, we did incur
overhead, a $200,000 expenditure which was established several years
ago and which we also understand, like everything else, you have to
pay the price if you progress and advance. We also have had some
good sound annexations and the seven story Home Savings Building -
these have helped us, and we hope by 1971 Bren Company will be
pretty well underway plus Macco Corporation. Our big play for 1971
will be the upgrading of the CBD area. This will be a two-way
phase improvement; 1 - you will be increasing your assessed valuation
by a large diget and also increasing your capacity of sales. When
you have a large display and a large area of sales it almost triples
or quadtriples the capacity that is now working within the Plaza area.
But one other thing we must consider) our percentage of sales compared
to last year as of this year in December is down. It may go up a bit
in January and February, but so far it is down.+
(Councilman Nichols arrived at 8015 P.M. and Mr. Aiassa apologized for
having forgotten he arranged to pick him up, thus causing his delay
in arriving for the meeting on time.)
Mr. Faunce: In the coming year we are going to be faced
with something new that the cities have
never gone through before and that) in our
City will be three employee groups. And I am quite certain that each
of those groups will come well prepared when they sit down for
negotiations - with figures, facts and comparisons. I believe that
the City has to be able to have its own facts and figures to present
to compare with what the employees have. They will come in with very
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CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Seven
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well prepared briefs and I think we are going to have to have
outside help and I am not talking about a complete salary classifi-
cation but the salary survey is what concerns us. Particularly
Police and Fire will want to compare with the City of Los Angeles
and the County of Los Angeles, and with the freeways going in that
is a valid reason for wanting too. With the Pomona Freeway,, the
Foothill Freeway - they have access to the large cities. The thing
that concerns the Personnel Board is the criteria to be used in the
establishment of the Salary Survey. I also think the Fringe Benefit
Survey should be undertaken at the same time, because these things
should all be in one package. The total salary classification - I
don't think is so necessary. Our relationship with the
employees has been wonderful and I am sure it will continue to be
that, but there are going to be three groups to work with now and
this is why I think we should be totally prepared.
Chairman Tice: Yes, I think from past discussions we
are generally in accord with regard to the
need of a salary survey but not the need for
a full scale classification survey.
Mr. Sanborn: It should also be pointed out that we have
never had a full fringe benefit study made.
Chairman Tice: When I first came on the Board I asked for
one and the City Manager wanted to make it
an inhouse study..
Mr. Sanborn: Fringe benefits are approaching somewhere
near 30/ of total payroll costs and I_think
the Board feels generally if funds are
available for a study of that type that is one of the most important
areas that should be studied.
Mr. Sornborger: To have a Fringe Benefit study per se is
rather unusual, I don't believe it has been
undertaken by many cities from the response
I receive from various consulting services. It is an unusual
approach, but as Mr. Sanborn pointed out, it is approaching 30%,
and a prior Board member used to say "salaries can change but fringe
benefits are here to stay.BO
Chairman Tice: And they do go up continually. In industry
it averages between 26 and 27/. So those
two items I believe the Board would like to
go through with, and the Classification Study we have our doubts on.
Councilman Young: The Board basically feels the need or
desirability then for an outside consultant?
Chairman Tice: Yes, I think we do. It kind of adds a
neutral air to it, puts the administration
in the middle and makes for a happy
situation.
• Mr. Sanborn: Mr. Faunce touched on the fact that the
employees are separating now and asking
for recognition and I don't think the
Board wants to give the Council the impression we are frightened
by this at all because in fact I think it is just the contrary, but
we would like to have the facts at hand to deal with it if the need
arises and so we are trying to get some direction because many things
are changing. What are we going to be expected to do for you and
what tools are we to work with and what are the goals?
Mayor Chappell: Do you feel you are coming into an era for
the need of hiring negotiators, yourselves?
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Chairman Tice: It may come to that. It depends on what stand
the associations take, we don't know at this
point. It has happened in other cities.
Mr. Sanborn: I don't think the Board wants to give the
Council the impression that because this is a
new area it means it is going to cost more
money to pay salaries, at least I personally don't feel that way.
It is just a matter of being prepared to handle negotiations and deal
with it.
Mr. Sornborger: I don't feel the Board at this point would in
anyway indicate that because as pointed out,
we do have a good relationship with the city
employees regardless of the fact they have broken into three
different groups. From my own personal experience over the years on
the Board to be perfectly honestI am sure there is a basic distrust
that most employees have and not only in the City of West Covina, of
surveys particularly relative to salary, conducted by management.
There'.was a time on one survey when the results were tried to be kept
completely confidential so that word didn't get out, hoping when
presented it would be done so completely and in an unbiased way but
I think we need as a tool when working with the employees, a criteria
that has been developed by somebody other than management in order to
say this is completely objective - what reason would this individual
have to give anything but a completely objective report, etc.
Councilman Young: Accepting the basic premise at this point that
the Board feels an outside consultant should
be available - am I correctl is that the Board's
consensus?
Chairman Tice: Yes.
Councilman Young: Do you think this is a matter --that should be
handled on a bid .basis, mofe:-=orless like we
have before us tonight, where we have several
proposals, or do you think it should be on a retainer basis like we
have our City Attorney? Which is close to my heart. We have the
same City Attorney year after year. I suspect we could put that out
for bids each year but for a lot of reasons he builds up a backlog
of knowledge to the City year after year - and then pay extra to the
consultant for certain types of service, similar to paying the City
Attorney for litigation. Do you have any opinions on that?
Chairman Tice: I personally feel we should use a bid basis
from the standpoint of seeing what is new.
These things change. Using an attorney and
a consultant, well there is a different approach from the standpoint
a consultant may not always keep up with current things as he should.
I feel Mr. Gold has done a very fine job but I think we should look
at new areas. I don't think we should be tied down with one man for
any length of time.
Mr. Sornborger: I would concur. I think it is a healthier
situation to switch, if advisable, and maybe
not strictly on the basis of the cost factor
but from the idea if they are in too long they may get the employee
feeling the same as they accuse management of.
Mr. Aiassa: We have to look on the ensuing year a little
different than in the past, because up to this
year we did not have the official recognition
of any collective group. I feel if we are considering a consultant
it has to be considered also on his ability and aptitude of how he
can come across on negotiations, because this is where management,
the Board and Council, is going to need help. When we get to the
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arbitration table. Gold might be fine in surveys but how does he
come out in the fireworks of that type of confrontation and we may
be faced with this.
Councilman Lloyd: Maybe I am not coming across - first of all I
think all of this is how much dough do we have
to spend m how much help do we have to have -
and who is this individual going to serve? There has been some
alluding to the fact that the administration must have faith and I
guess the legislative body must have faith but just who is this
individual going to serve? I think the answer is quite simple at
this point. I, as a Councilman, have only one employee and that is
the City Manager, at least one -fifth of him. In the final analysis
it is really the City Manager and the Department Leads, the Chief of
Police, the Fire Chief, etc., these are the people that have to
face the problems of employee relations. We can talk till we are
blue in the face but that is exactly what you people are here to do,
and I am now defining in philosphy what I see your role as, and if
I am wrong please correct me - but my reaction to the whole thing
is if there is any problem with the employees I am going to go to
the City Manager and say, hey why can't you fix it up, that is your
problem. I want a happy city and I want it run as cheaply as possible.
I don't want to raise taxes, etc. etc. So somewhere along the line
the City Manager has to show me through the financial arrangement
what is possible. So alright, let's hire Mr. Gold or somebody like
that, I have no objections to that, but he becomes an aids to whom?
First to the administration people and to.you people in your
relationship to us and that is really- the only relationship that
exists as far as Council is concerned. So I am saying okay I will go
along with that, you want to hire somebody on a consulting basis over
a long period of time and I agree, then I say don't bother me with
the details, as a Councilman. If you need that kind of help thAi�r
that's fine with me, but don't bother me with it. I am firmly
convinced in my own mind in the militancy of the world that exists
in the United States today and as somewhat of a behavioralist I
have to accept the fact that although our employees per se have not
been militant, none of us sitting in this room can't say it won't
happen here in West Covina, not anymore than any of us can sit here
and gay the racial situation that happened in Pomona is not going to
happen here in West Covina, because it is. It is going to happen
in Covina, Glendora and other areas. These are the problems that
George and his successor, and the Personnel Board and their
successors, and my successors are going to have to face. So
realistically we have to say we have problems coming up in this
area so if we have the dough to pay for it m okay, although I am
not hot about these studies at all, but I would much rather adopt
the attitude if you need that consultant who specializes in the
area of employee relations or industrial relations then that is the
guy we are going to have to have now because West Covina has
arrived at the point of urbanization and we have to give you people
the tools to work with or accept the fact that we can't put any
demands on you.
Actually I don't see the thing totally as a
contention situation but on the other hand I do see the problems
we are facing and I.think the solution then would be the
acquisition of these people. I think these are the mechanics,
which you people plus the administrators plus the employee people
that deal with these things, must face and must make known to you.
My attitude at this point is rather than do this and pour money into
it, I would rather put it into an individual such as you are asking
for.
Mr. Aiassa: The reason the Personnel Board wanted the
joint meeting is because of the three things
I mentioned earlier and the'most important
9
CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Ten
thing is how are we going to face the 71-72 year as far as
salaries and employee relations? Up to this time we have had
excellent relationship with theaemployees and actually we have
had labor relations with our employees but it has been done
.informally without distinct cleavage of saying I represent the
Firement! Association, I represent the Police Association, but now
each one will come in with specialized demands. We might even
have an Engineering Group, or a Planning Group.
Mr. Faunce: Another thing, for the first time this year
we are coming under the law. Previously
we never recognized any group, so there is a
difference. You don't just sit and listen, you negotiate and confer.
Before you just met and conferred but now you have to meet, confer
and negotiate.
Mr. Aiassa: One further point. I think the Council has
the same feelings they always had and that..is
if the hard grinding work can be done- through
management and the Personnel Board) who are they to quarrel because
the end result is what they seek. The only thing is I feel that
the thoroughness and completeness of our work is going to depend ,
whether or not the Council is going to have a complete dress •,.-
rehearsal like they used to do at the Planning Commission.and skip
the Planning Commission and go direct to the Council, and I don't
want that to occur because then we will have everything confronting
the Council and then the Personnel Board might as well fold up.
Councilman Young: The consensus of the Board and management is
that a -consultanV-is a key need in this
picture and I agree with Mr. Aiassa, I think
we definitely want the Board to function as it has functioned,
which is a tougher job than the Council has by a long shot, because
we tend to accept the Board's recommendations. I don't know when
it has ever been questioned by Council. The Board has brought a
consensus of management and employee relations to the Council and
we have faced the consensus with a budget that could stand it.
An important part of this, is the use of the outside consultant.
I would like to ask Ithe question at this point, of the various
proposals you have which one do you want? And is this a decision
that is expected to be made tonight?
Chairman Tice: No, not tonight.
Councilman Young: I have looked at the material but probably
not as thoroughly as I should. Do you have
a distinct recommendation in that area?
Mr. Aiassa: A comment which is strictly administration,
we are coming into a new era and the first
thing is are we going to continue the old
program and if so, to what extent? We must and this is something
we have not put into these reviews yet with the consultants, the
employee -relations dealing directly with the employee groups and
for this they will demand a professional fee. I think the
Personnel Board should be given some kind of a directive 'if the
.use.of a consultant is to be considered, that this be shown as an
important item. I don't expect complete shattering experiences
with the employee groups whether they are recognized or not
officially, but I do expect certain minority problems, or what we
call certain classifications that have to be dealt with. Police
and Fire consist of the majority, the minority is the number like
clerical and certain specialized work such as engineering and
planning. These people have to be dealt with personally. They
will not listen to just comments of economics, statistics and
figures.
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.CITY COUNCIL •(ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Eleven
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Councilman Young: What is really desired then is an expression
from the Council. Personally I am willing to
say -eyes let's have an outside consultant
and let's.have him chosen at the discretion of the Board subject to
whatever.budgetary'limitations there are. You have to work within
that realistic framework. I think that establishes at least one
criteria.
Mr. Windsor: This is the normal procedure for the selection
of the consultant.
Mr. Aiassa: With the one exception. We requested them to
do a complete salary survey using the same
percentile we established in prior years. If
the Personnel Board is given a directive,:Aini we have a $4,000
budget, that they be authorized to get the best consultant in the
categories and areas we discussed tonight.
Councilman Lloyd: Do you want to make that decision or do you
want them to make the decision? .
Mr. Aiassa: It will be a joint decision between the
Personnel Board and management. My staff
works directly with the Personnel Board and in
turn I work directly with the Board, we get,a consensus and the
Board recommends to Council and you make the final decision.
Councilman Lloyd: Again, do you have the money?
Mr. Aiassa: Yes we have $4,000 in the current budget.
Councilman Shearer: How long does a salary survey take?
Mr. Aiassa: About 4 months.
Councilman Shearer: We don't have 4 months. We will be in budget
sessions before the salary survey is done.
Mr. Aiassa: If we went for the full study it would take
4 months but if we just go over the 10
or so classifications and a salary survey -
about 60 days. The next question is whether we are going to maintain
the 10 cities for comparison and whether we are going to use the
65th - 75th percentile.
Mayor Chappell: Is that a thing we have to answer for you
before we can go further?
Mr. Aiassa: I think the Personnel Board should be given
the leeway to recommend to Council that they
will meet with the consultants and will come
back with a package proposal to the Councilmin relation to the $4,000m
Mr. Sornborger: Onefcomment.. Over the years the cost on these
things have run up considerably. We presented
.a bill for $2500. for a complete classification
study ten years ago and it didn't seem too bad, but I, as an.indivi-
dual have gotten the feeling that unless I had a chance to discuss
with the City Council as a whole, we could continue as a Board to
present a bill to you for $5,000 - $6,000 and $7,000, tripling the
amounts we have been presenting, plus when finished the additional
cost for salaries would run into tens of thousands of dollars and
you would begin to look at it as here is a, survey costing me several
thousand dollars and I end up paying thousands in additional
salaries, so what is the need of this? And I began to feel a little
uneasy about this whole thing and this is what I wanted clarified.
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CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Twelve
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
I didn't think, as an individual, I would get anything other than
the feeling.I am getting from the Council right now.
Mayor Chappell: The survey gives you an orderly answer and the
Consultant takes a little pressure off of your
group and our group also. I think employees
tend to look at somebody sitting on the outside as more neutral than
staff.
Councilman Young: I am willing to offer a motion at anytime to
effectuate at least this portion of the dis-
cussion, authorizing the Board to go ahead
within the budgetary limitation stated, to engage a consultant for.
such studies as the Board deems in its discretion are desirable for
the 1971-72 year. That is a loose motion.
Councilman Lloyd: Can we add to that "or to acquire them on a
retainer. basis."
Councilman Young: I am happy to add that because it gives them
greater flexibility and I think that is what
is exactly needed.
Councilman Lloyd: I will second that motion,
Mr. Aiassa: One comment - the Personnel Board cannot
hire, they will formally recommend to the
Council.
Councilman Nichols: Mr. Mayor, I have two observations I would
like to make before voting on this matter.
First, we are moving very late into this area
this year to begin talking about bringing in a consultant whose
work would have any value to us by July 1. Our experience in the
past has been even when we began with our experienced and friendly
consultant that when we get him going in March and early April
we are into July and August before we get any definitive answers,
so I would caution about going too far afield and getting some
person in to serve us who has never dealt with the City of West
Covina and has no knowledge of our on -going problems and hds done
no work for us before. I think we might find that the value of
that service wouldn't become apparent until after the time of need.
The other thought I have and my own thinking corresponds with that
.of Mr. Tice, I think we are treading on somewhat shaky ground when
we attempt to use the analogy of the legal resource person, the
person on retainer, in terms of a salary,.consultant. I feel quite
strongly a salary consultant's value is only partly=to management
in a direct sense, the other half of his value to management is
indirect at best and that is that he is accepted on face value by
the employee groups; that the employee groups believe this
consultant is ip fact one who is not a hired gun but a con-
tracting person that has many interests and many masters and that
his findings are truly objective. I think ovex a long period of
time familiarity with a consultant tends to give:a situation where
it becomes somewhat suspect to the employee groups. I think if
•you take that into consideration you may find the retainer concept,
while applicable to the attorney who is a servant of management
exclusively, may not be equally applicable to the consultant who
must be accepted on all fronts in the same sense. I would hope
that without disparaging Councilman Lloyd's appreciation of the
retainer, it might not apply totally to the consultant.
Chairman Tice: On this first item, I think the Board fully
realize's we can't do much with the Classifi-
cation.Study at this point. We only have
approximately ten classifications to review but the Fringe Benefit
area was the main thing.
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CITY COUNCIL (ADJ) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Thirteen
Motion carried on roll call vote as follows:
AYES: Councilmen Nichols, Shearer, Young, Lloyd, Mayor Chappell
NOES: None
ABSENT: None
2) The need to Continue Present City Policy
With Respect to Placing all City classes within the
65th to 75th Percentile of Comparison Cities
and
3) The need to Continue Using 10 Comparison Cities
for Criteria Purposes
Councilman Shearer: I feel that if we are hiring a consultant,
and I always feel this way, whether he is
doing a planning study for the CBD or a
General Plan for the City, if we set off beginning to give him a set
of rules then he is not really a consultant but just a compiler of
data:' I think the consultant should be hired on the basis of a
certain amount of freedom. I happened to look at the low bidder -
Martyns Associates and I noticed in Martyns proposal he talks -.about
salary survey and goes beyond the 10 cities concept saying he would
compile data for at least 20 - local private employees, city, county
and the. State. He goes beyond the 10 city criteria.' I don't think
we should any longer just say that the .10 cities is it and that we
have to be at the 65th - 75th percentile of these 10. If that is
all we do then I think Mr. Windsor can hire a clerk for a year at
what this will cost us, a;nd the clerk can compile that kind of data.
I think we have to break,awgy from this hard and fast rule that this
is what we are tied into and look at what is fair to the employee of
West Covina. The consultant may want to confer with other cities
to get some sort of feeling as to how do I stand, am I away out it
left field or am I somewhat in step? But if we hire him on the basis
and set all the ground rules we are going to get what we ask for
and then we might as well do it ourselves.
Councilman Nichols: For sometime now I have had a concern on this
subject matter and I have felt it is something
basic to the work of the Personnel Board and
the City Council and the Administration, in terms of salary matters.
The history of the use of comparison cities goes back some 10 or 12
years when we had an earlier cluster of cities and for the last 6 or
7 years the so-called 10 city comparison group. It is my recollection
that the City of West Covina went to the comparison basis largely
because at that time we were growing very rapidly and did not have salary
classifications of our own and needed something to anchor the city too.
The thought has come to me increasingly that the so-called 10 city
comparison, if we really looked into it would be largely invalid
today because you go back 8 years and the very things that established
the 10 cities as agencies that could reasonably be compared, those
same factors are no longer present. When you think of the changes
in population, in assessed valuation, in revenues, all of these things
that have occurred over the years, there must be some very significant
changes so that for us to say in 1971 well yes here are the 10
•cities and we should stay number 3 in these 10 would not be a very
prudent thing without looking at it very carefully. I think we have
matured as a City to the point where we should not religiously
attempt to hold to=any particular criteria any longer as being our
Bible that would transcend our own sense of fiscal responsibility
and our own sense of judgment. I think we are mature enough today
and I think we have a mature Personnel Board, in fact I would say we
have as fine a Personnel Board as you could find anywhere, and that
we ought to be able to use the 10 cities as an indication, as a
value, as a guideline and then shoot for whatever position we feel is
right and proper for the City in terms of our fiscal capability and
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CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Fourteen
our staff ability, thereby giving our management and our Personnel
Board a greater degree of flexibility in handling these matters. I
would not, in conclusion, advocate some major abandonment of the
procedure which has been our Bible in salary matters over the years,
but I would advocate a notice to all involved that the City Council
and its Personnel Board, and its management by policy will stray from
the 10 city standards if we deem it is advisable and desirable to do
so. Certainly we should state that we will stray to the extent that
it is necessary to,maintain the fiscal integrity of the City. I
would like to see the direction to the Board stating that the 10 city
comparison is our guide but no longer is our Bible. I think that
would be the prudent approach to 1971.
Councilman Young: I like the comments of both Councilmen and I
wonder what the Board's reaction is?
Chairman Tice: We have discussed a little of this and my own
feeling is as Councilman Nichols brings out, we
should have it as a factor but it should not
be the underlying factor as it was used in the past, there should be
other factors in making the evaluation. I don't think we can hold to
this anymore as the main factor. All our increases have been geared
almost 100% on this type of thing.
Councilman Young: Mr. Mayor - is there a comment from the City
Manager on the 10 city comparison, particularly
in light of the comments just made?
Mr. Aiassa: I have two comments. One, I know the Fire
Department is not very happy with the 10 cities
and I also think the Police Department is
not happy and we have now come to the crossroads as to which will be
fair cities and which will not. I think it is time the Council
puts the ecnomics of the City, its ability to pay, the type of
community it is in relation to crime and fires and things like that,.
that we bring all this into focus - what we are dealing with in
relation to our City. I sure couldn't compare myself to the City of
E1 Monte. And there are other cities that have far different
problems, cities that have large industrial patches, and large
minority groups and things like that. These are the things that
I think play a major role when it comes to working relations, also
the condition of the facilities employees have to work in.
Councilman Young: I am willing to suggest that there is a con-
sensus on Items 2 and 3.
Mayor Chappell: I think this last January pay raise, if you
remember when the employees were talking to
us the 65th -'75th percentile really locked
us in and I think we can't get locked in
that way anymore with the type of income our City is getting from
the various tax bases. The 10 city comparison I have always
objected too. I objected to it when on the School Board. In my
business of insurance I travel around a lot and run into various
private enterprise businesses and I am not just talking about
. secretarial work, but I have been told by businessmen that "you
guys are killing us, you have all these holidays and fringe
benefits and our people have to work, you are supposed to be serving
our community yet you are closed down and we are working. I have
to give my 2 or 3 men extra pay raises because you are getting them
over at the City and we can't keep up and we are getting pressure
from our employees, etc." As one of the people here pointed out
we have to bring in free enterprise. We can't bring it in on Fire
and Police but there are other things we can bring in. I think
they have to recognize we want them properly paid, we don't want
any second class employees or any underpaid employees, we want them
to be paid what they should be paid. I think we have to move out
of our sphere. We have talked about this before and it is good it
- .14 -
CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Fifteen
has come to a head this evening, because it looks like all five of
us have given you some guidelines along that line and a much
broader area to work in. If we can't pay what the County Firemen
gets,' well when that man is in some northern part of the County
and he gets transferred to someplace 60 or 80 miles away, well
that is worth., some money and they sure do move them around. I
think our firemen have to recognize the most we can transfer them
is 3 or 4 miles and I think these things are worth money. `
Travel time and all that is worth money. These are all things that
we should take into consideration.when going into this. I am sure
the Council will always pay the employees what we can afford to
pay them, but we are coming to the point now where we have to say we
can't pay more money without going into the red. I meet with
several different Mayors each month and that is the biggest bone of
contention right now, the competitiveness of pay. We are just
running away with inflation; our citizens are be to be
bothered/they would all like to come and work for the City because
now it is the place to earn your money.
Councilman Shearer: I would like to make a few comments in defense
of civil service employees, I happen to be one
of them. There seems to be the fear that if
we don't give our employees what they are asking we are going to have
trouble. I don't think we can run a business that way. We seem to
fear strikes. That is the tenure these days in all governmental
agencies. I think there is a great deal.of loyalty among the service
employees and they will recognize the facts of life as they are. What
can the City afford? What can my employer afford? I don't think we
will see mass open rebellion. I believe we will have some mumblings.
The Governor submitted his budget with absolutely no pay increases
and sure there were a few people that mumbled, elected officials in
employee organizations made noises because of the pay and because
that is what they are supposed to do as elected officials of the
employee organizations. I haven't noticed any moral let down:in
the organization. There is no mass exodus to go to work for
somebody else who pays a lot higher because there are not just that
many jobs in the cities that might be No. 1, 2 or 3 higher, there
are not that many job openings to be :had:. I don't think we should
base our recommendations on the fear that somebody is going to be
unhappy, but approach it strictly on what is fair. I think we have
loyalty among our employees and if we don't then maybe there is
something to be said on the other side of the coin. What is fair is
fair and not depending on what somebody else is able to afford.
Mr. Aiassa: I had comments from outside employees who were
making $50 to $150 a month more than City
employees up to 3 or 4 years ago. I remember
not too many years ago I lost a lot of my employees to private
industry for that extra revenue, better advantages, more promotions,
etc. I feel in essence we have some very dedicated employees -
that you couldn't equal even if you were able to go into the
competitive market. These people will serve and die in a municipal
agency or governmental agency. I can't say that completely about the
Police and Fire because some of them change their vocations, but
the rank and file of the employees are just as dedicated and just as
valuable today as they were 10 years ago, with the one exception we
now have the younger groups that have been in private industry and
they now want the benefits of industry. It is not the older people
who suffered through the dry period when we didn't have salary and we
had a 45/ turnover. The majority of our employees are not the
kind that cause labor rousing and raise cain. You have some very
dedicated employees. I just can't get over excited with some people
saying - well I would like to get into city government because those
same people when we:were beating the bushes to get them just to
apply couldn't be found, whereas now we have 35 to 40 people applying
for a job. As soon as the outside labor market opens up we wi11 lose
those people.
- 15 -
•
CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Sixteen
Councilman Lloyd: I have worked in both arenas and suffice to
say that anybody that wants to go on the same
criteria, anybody hiring people, will tell you
that you have a situation in the City of West Covina which is a pre
ferred situation. I don't see any reason why the employees therefore
should fall down and worship the ground or anything like that and we
may be very foolish but I will say flat out that this is a good thing.
We also have an obligation to our employees but -it is also my con-
sidered opinion that they are lucky. I think it is a good place to
be and if you have 40 or 50 people applying for jobs it has to tell
you something because things are real tough on the outside.
Mr. Aiassa: I think the employees know that, there is no
question about that.
Councilman Shearer: That is the point I was trying to make. I
think they know that and,appreciate that they
have something in civil service that they don't
have on the outside and if they are honest with themselves this is
of value. This is of value to me and I appreciate it and I am not
banging on the door saying - gee Governor Reagan you didn't include
5% or whatever in your budget therefore I am quitting and neither are
most of our employees. I wasn't trying to be defensive but I think
if we are straight forward our employees will face the facts. If it
is something they want which we can't afford they will understand, and
if they are not that kind of people then they can go where the grass
is greener.
Councilman Young: I think we are all thoroughly appreciative of
the employee relations we have had up till now.
I am sure we have negotiating groups forming
now but they are forming out of the same people we have been working
with over the years. And I have felt over the last few years that I
have taken an interest in it that appropriate restraints have been
shown by the employees and appropriate meeting of the minds have been
reached each year and as far as the comment made by Mr. Aiassa, we
all agree that they are not labor rousers and I can recall occasions
when I was on the Personnel Board when the employees and Board
faced up to things and had some rather blunt confrontations. Sure
we are moving into a new era but we are dealing with the same people
and any comments we have made have not been intended to reflect dis-
trust or a spanking or anything like that.
Councilman Lloyd: Mr. Mayor, I have this to offer as a motion
on Items 2, 30 4, and 5. That the Personnel
Board come back with recommendations to the
Council after consultation with the administration as to the 65th -
75th percentile and that they reevaluate that area; and in Item 3
they reevaluate the requirement of the 10 comparison cities, and
Item 4 concerning the cost:of salary and fringe benefit increases,
again that they come forward with that; and Item 5 that in dealing
with formal negotiators we pretty well stated it and that they come
forward with that.
Chairman Tice: Item 5 - we don't have too much of a choice,
that is set out by law now.
Councilman Young: I will second that motion.
Councilman Nichols: It was my thought that the Council had pretty
well directed to the Personnel Board its
sentiments in terms of Items 2 and 3 and yet
the motion indicated that the Personnel Board should come back to
Council with some type of recommendations. I wonder what type of
recommendation are we seeking? Are we seeking a recommendation?
I am not.
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•CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Seventeen
Councilman Lloyd: To answer your question. Prior to your
arrival and since that time we talked about
the 65th - 75th percentile and what we are
saying to the Board is, is this still a realistic figure? It
might be 50/ and it could be 80%. This Council is questioning
Iswhether the 10 comparison cities currently being used are usable.
We are asking the Board to give us that information. What is the
best way to go? As suggested here, should we go into the
businesses in West Covina, Covina, etc.,? Should we go into
large industries such as Convair, Aer6jet, Minneapolis -Honeywell?
Should we consider other employee areas and other governmental
agencies or should it strictly be just the cities?
Councilman Nichols: I understand that but it was my understanding
that we were simply indicating to the Personnel
Board that there need not be in the future a
rigid interpretation of these official figures.
Councilman Lloyd: I think that is true.
Councilman Nichols: I am saying in essence I don't see the
appropriateness of asking them to turn around
and recommend to us if in fact that is what
we meant.
Mayor Chappell: We voted in 1969 to go on the 65th to 75th
percentile and this was a vote by Council. I
think now these gentlemen are going to have to
come back to us and say I don't think we are able to maintain that
status and we are going to have to vote again.
Councilman Nichols: That is where we differ. I think that is a
policy decision that Council should make and
we shouldn't be passing the buck.
Mayor Chappell: But we got it from them originally or the City
Manager.
Councilman Nichols: Oh no we didn't get the recommendation from
them to adopt a 10 city comparison - this is
strictly a policy matter. I don't see how we
can expect our Personnel Board to tell us whether we should or
should not stray from the 65th - 75th percentile range. If we are
saying for them to look into it and compile data, etc., but I feel
this is a role this Council originally played and set up and the
Board has been faithfully following that all through the years.
The controversies within the City family have been - well are we
within this range, or are we not, and gentlemen for us now to say
you fellows look at this again and you tell your elected officials
whether or not your city can afford this? In my judgment this is
not for the Personnel Board to do. This is something for management
to say to the City Council.
Councilman Lloyd: I asked a specific question of the City
Manager - who do you want to do it. Do you
want them to do it or do you want to do it
and he said he worked with them.
Mr. Aiassa: We work in association with the Board because
my staff coordinates their activities and work.
Councilman Lloyd: That is what I asked and that is why I put it
in that way.
Mr. Aiassa: I think your comments, Mr. Nichols, are valid
on this basis. The formula that we finally
follow will have to be decided by the Council
but it is the responsibility of my staff and the Personnel Board
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CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Page Eighteen
to recommend to Council the alternatives that might be adopted in
lieu of what is now existing.
Councilman Nichols: Let me make one final observation. The Council
. unanimously said we do not feel that the
Personnel Board or the City Council in the
future should be bound by the 10 city comparison which automatically
then rules out the binding of any percentile. Now we are turning
around and asking the Board to make a study with staff to recommend
to us whether or not we should follow these percentiles. It just
seems to me what we are asking the Board to pass on what we have
already given as direction to the Board. Now am I so wrong in
my understanding that is what we said?
Councilman Young: Mr. Mayor, why don't we defeat this motion and
not even have a motion as to Items 2 and 3
at least and possibly the other items that the
motion relates too, because this is where Mr. Nichols is -hung up
and I agree with him to some extent. We do have a consensus on this
and it is well understood by the Board, management and City Council,
that we have this consensus of understanding, so what is the motion
for? At least with regards to Items 2 and 3. The consensus of
opinion is that we are going on basic fairness and basic
competitiveness as it fits the needs of the City of West Covina,
which means we are giving the Personnel Board a greater burden
than before, because we have taken away the security blanket by
removing the .criteria cities. If I was on the Board right now I
would be scafed,.- to death.
Mr. Aiassa: I think the Board would like to substitute
something for that 65th-75th percentile,;
maybe a substitute of 10 cities.
Mr. Sornborger: In substituting in a way for the 65th-75th
percentile, actually I think the statement
that Councilman Shearer made was that assuming
we hire a consultant we are hiring for his recommendations and
historically we have offered in the way of salary a quality
differential factor and why was this in there? Simply because, as
Mr. Aiassa stated, yearly we have had what we considered a quality
employee to make up for the differential in numbers of employees.
We operate by far fewer than the City of Alhambra, so they are paid
for it. If we disregarded the percentile factors and outlined to
our consultant that our dilemna is this, for the. first time we have
had to cut back in hiring in furnishing salary -increases - as you
know we had to cut back hiring and this is the first time we have
ever had to do that. So if the consultant knows this and also knows
the dilemna of other cities and we say we have a quality
employee, we work with fewer employees and want to keep it that way,
that automatically sets the guidelines for the consultant to come
back and tell us what we have to pay and we make our recommendation
and we don't have to play with percentile factors. This is the
way I see it.
Councilman Young: Which is Item 1 on the agenda.
Councilman Lloyd: I was under the impression that I _ was-- ao- ng `-`'__
to expedite, but I didn't. Let°`s vote the
motion down and somebody come up with something
else.
Motion failed on roll call vote as follows:
AYES: Councilman Lloyd
NOES: Councilmen Nichols, Shearer; Young, Mayor.=Chappell
ABSENT: None
�-*M
CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Nineteen
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Councilman Nichols: Mr. Mayor, if I may observe something in
collaboration with what Councilman Young
indicated, the Council has given its
feeling in unanimity to the Personnel Board and the thrust of the
• feeling was to the extent that it may be necessary to maintain the
fiscal integrity of the City and to provide equity in salary ad-
justments the Council will support the concept of deviating from
the rigid application of the 10 city comparison and the 65th-75th
percentile. It seems to me and I would hope I am not sounding
dogmatic, but it would seem to me that they should provide for this
the adequate guidelines to the Board. If the City Manager in
working with the Personnel Board wants to devise some other tools
or some firm guidelines out of this discussion tonight, I would be
most pleased to receive these, but I don't envision that the Council
really needs to be more specific or more definitive than we have
this evening. I think we have given a great deal of latitude and
encourage you gerrElemen to take it from there. If Mr. Aiassa and
staff feel they would like to work in a different direction with the
Board for some other guidelines, be our guest.
Councilman Young: I would make a motion that we concur in the
remarks just made by Councilman Nichols.
Seconded by Councilman Shearer.
Councilman Shearer: Hasa past Council specifically established
the 10 City crieteria?
Councilman Nichols: Yes.
Councilman Shearer: Then we have to do something tonight if we
deviate from it. Do we have to repeal
previous Council action?
Mr. Aiassa: I don't suggest that Council repeal until
the Personnel Board reviews and when they
bring in their recommendations, that is the
time you might take action.
Mr. Faunce: One further comment. We came before you
because I feel we want to get out from the
65th-75th percentile and the 10 city
comparison. I believe we would like to have the Council say that
is the direction we are going and not asking for any recommenda-
tions coming back from us, then we would hire the consultant to
establish the criteria®
Councilman Nichols:
Mr. Faunce:
Councilman Nichols:
Mr. Faunce:
That is what we have just done.
But just what recommendations do you want
us to come back with? Do you want a
recommendation on the comparison cities or
what?
No.
Our recommendation. would be on the hiring
of a consultant who would establish the
criteria.
Mr. Aiassa: Council doesn't want to abolish something.
that is existing unless they know what is
coming forth by the Personnel Board and
staff that is an adequate substitute.
Chairman Tice: At present I don't believe we have any agree-
ment.amongst ourselves. We have to get ideas
and discuss.
- 19 -
CITY COUNCIL (ADJ.) 2/16/71 Page Twenty
JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD
Mr. Aiassa: The Council was emphatic enough to say we
will not follow the 65th-75th percentile
or the 10 cities.
• Motion carried on roll call vote as follows:
AYES: Councilmen Nichols, Shearer, Young, Lloyd, Mayor Chappell
NOES: none
ABSENT: None
Mayor Chappell: I believe we discussed Item 4 rather thoroughly;
and Item 5 has been covered.
Chairman Tice: Yes it has been discussed and we know that
we can't give you a recommendation for a 20 ;
increase when we know the City can't afford
it.
Councilman Shearer: I think you should be reasonable but not make
a physical analysis, let us face the responsi-
bility. Are we going to go along with 8/ when
it means a 5(, tax rate or cut it to 4/.
Chairman Tice: I don't quite see how we can divorce ourselves
and do a thorough job on it.
Mr. Sanborn: And what this item refers to, well we can
spend a lot of time and effort on this and
recommend something and Council can come back
and say we don't have the funds, whereas having:Some direction we:'.will
not be going in the wrong direction.
Mayor Chappell: I believe we have covered all the items rather
thoroughly and I think we have had a very
good meeting, one of the best we have ever had.
Councilman Nichols: I would hate to pay for this talent.
ADJOURNMENT Motion by Councilman Lloyd, seconded by
Councilman Young and carried, adjourning meeting
at 9:35 P.M.
APPROVED:
MAYOR
• ATTEST:
CITY CLERK