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12-23-1968 - Special 2 Meeting - Minutes• MINUTES OF THE ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL CITY OF WEST COVINA, . CALIFORNIA DECEMBER 23, 1968. The adjourned regular meeting of the City. Council was called to order at 6 p. m, , in the West Covina City Hall by Mayor -Leonard S. Gleckman. Pledge of Allegiance led by Councilman Chappell. At 6„05 p.m. the Mayor called a recess to allow those attending .to partake of their food prior to discussing the busilness at hand. Meeting reconvened at 6:30 pam. PRESENT: Councilmen Chappell, Nichols, Lloyd, Gillum, Mayor Gleckman Planning Commission: Chairman Adams; Commissioners Jackson, Mayfield Also `-Present: George Aiassa, City Manager H. R. Fast, . Public Services Director -Owen Menard, Planning ,Director R. Terzian, Ass't. City Attorney I?A,/ ► 114ASoR, POPUTI GITy U-6911. AMENDMENT NO. 94 - CITY INITIATED Mayor Gleckman; Primarily the 6 p.m. dinner meeting of the Council and Planning. Commission was called to discuss the -analysis • and comparison of the zoning ordinance, In particular, questions brought up with regard to the C-2 zoning that came from the Planning Commission to the. City. Council. There were several points picked out by Council as to whether or not we weren't being so restrictive in our Ordinances that we were planning and pricing our. City out of the market basically and making it tougher to encourage development rather than encourage development; and we asked the Planning Department and invited the Planning ,Commission here because Council felt the Planning Commission should have some reasons by. Council as to why we are questioning certain things you pass on with recommendations to us to adopt. We thought this would be a good time to discuss our feelings and get some ideasfrom the Commission. One comment, prior to opening the discussion. If we could, when presented a new Ordinance, be given the new Ordinance with the changes under- lined rather than it just being recommended. It is difficult to weigh the Ordinances and not definitely know what the changes are. -I would now ask.Council if they have had an opportunity to.read the memorandum they received tonight? Councilman Lloyd: We have had only a cursory opporunity to do so, however, while I am going to question some of the items, .I. want to congratulate Mr. Menard on this memo, from my quick appraisal of it, it looks like very clear and concise report. -Mayor Gleckman; Our discussion previously primarily had to do with two Is particular areas: Size the recommendation from the Planning Commission to Council regarding a certain acre size before getting.C-2 zoning; and the other item was Hours; and also we were concerned about getting more restrictive in our zoning instead of more liberal in order to encourage development. Councilman Nichols- I think, just as staff indicates, that what you are doing now will have an effect years and years in the future and I think it is all the more vital that we' periodically review ,A'DJ, C.C. 12-23-68 Page Two AMENDMENT NO, 94 Continued what we are doing and what we have done and that it is in effect accomplishing that which we intended to do.. --As a corollary .to that, that we don't get some side effects to offset what we hoped to achieve... I think the ten of us have an extremely vital • responsibility in this respect. It appears to me that in a period of a few years, current trends can be established that will have an effect on the community for many years. I detect in my own mind two rather paradoxical thrusts that we hear repeatedly on Council. -On the one hand the constant impetus that we have to broaden our tax base by bringing more business into our community; the other thrust - we need to upgrade our community, make it a real nice place to live in. I think you cross certain lines sometimes where those two elements can be in conflict and. this has been my concern. The survey taken and stated in this report, was of a number of cities including Arcadia and Claremont. I don't look, in my own mind, to compare us with either Arcadia . or Claremont. I don't feel that our City competes with either of them, or with Montclair. I think we really compete with LaPuente, Baldwin, Park, Covina, and the unincorporated areas right around us. It is true the Montclair Plaza might be in competition with us but I donut think the people of West Covina go .there to do their regular shopping. I do feel that maybe we are over - restrictive with our neighboring communities - those within our own immediate trade area - to the extent that developers are refusing to consider our community for direct or indirect reasons. One thought I have - when we talk higher standards - and attempt to maintain higher standards, I think we tend to put a certain premium on land values in our community. When this occurs I think the economics of it enter in and I believe a large competitflve shopping chain, whether it be White Front or whatever, when they are talking about having to take on 20 or 30 acres of land and if the higher standards • are going to cost them significantly more money, .I feel that might be a deciding factor to go in the other direction. I don't know .this; but I ask that at this stage of our development we look at where we are going, what we have accomplished and what developments have occurred in surrounding areas - developments that might have come into our City and ask if to any extent our zoning practices could have harmed us? Personally I don't think West Covina will ever be an Arcadia so I am only talking about comparison with our immediate neighbors. Again I am talking about this from my own point of view and that is the area we are in right now. If somebody wants to trade in a 5 mile area - for instance the White Front Store where does it want to locate? What do our zoning restrictions do to these people that are looking for location.? Commissioner Mayfield: You talk about this idea of competition - in what frame of reference are you using it? Councilman Nichols- Obviously we know as lay people, because all of us have spent some years at it on the Planning Commission and Council level, there are certain types of businesses that trade in certain areas. For example to go down to the 7-11 Market, he will come in if it is at all reasonably possible because he is only trading in a very narrow area. So we can upgrade the 7-11 by putting those requirements in. Also other types of stores will come in no matter what we do because they only need to reach out a half mile or two miles. But a huge, gigantic shopping center - you may get if everything is right, .but there are broad fields inbetween where a huge store might • locate two miles away because of having a five or six mile trade area. So they could locate in.Covina and be just as willing to locate there as here, They may want to reach five miles in several directions and .moving a mile one way or the other doesn't kill them. Now we as a City if we can't compete with them in location because of a more restrictive business climate then I think we are doing a disservice to our community. I don't know this - I am saying "if". Commissioner Mayfield; From what you are saying most of the competition would be in the C-2 and C-3 categories, - 2 - A DJ. C.C. 12-23-68 AMENDMENT NO; 94 Continued Page Three Councilman Nichols: As a general rule, I thnk that is a fair statement. I think the typical type of business coming into the C- 1 zone is probably one that would want to get into every little center anyhow. Councilman Lloyd: First of all I want to say that I concur heartily with what Councilman Nichols has brought out, Whatever the reasons are - I probably have been involved in more market development as a result of my profession than anyone on the Conncil, and although I. do know that .the Mayor and City Manager in the past few days have been involved in this area, although I do not know the developments - I think that if we apply what Mr. Nichols has said .to the matrix of the market we would find that his words are even more pointed than when just falling into a general category. West Covina is certainly one of the top 5 or 6 markets as a City in .the total of the Los Angeles area, This is the opinion of many market surveys; as a matter of fact it ranks 4..th. The point.I would make here, as he pointed out, the developers wish to locate so they can tap this market, Now they can tap it from Covina as evidenced by the Sears store or maybe from La Puente with .the development of the Huntington Beach Freeway or Walnut through Grand, because a lot of ..th6 affluent area of West Covina exists in that area and is as close .to that area of Walnut as it would be to .the immediate shopping area currently located in the City. The point we have to face is we are going to have to go back to the land holder. Is the land which is available, available at a fair market price? 'It,is my immediate considerate opinion that the .land values in West Covina are restrictive and therefore prohibitive to the type of developers whom we are now seeking. I concur again with Mr. Nichols when he says the 7-11 will make all the concessions to get in and the gigantic super shopping center will accept all of • the conditions and variances that we are prepared to make in order to bring them in - they are. special markets. One coming entirely to us and the other where we go entirely to them. I know some of the people here have been, talking to specific developers of the class we are talking about but the point I am making is that I honestly believe what we are doing has to have a flexibility in it where the standard we apply in 1968 wanting to 1969 is going to be less stringent than, that which we are looking for in 1970-71 or 72. One other item comes to mind, we must also classify the development according to its normal life. This too becomes one of the variables that have to be considered. If a person builds a small apartment or a two story building, we can approve that today with a certain amount of immunity because we know it will be gone in 10 or 15 years. However, if we are putting up a foundry which is pretty solid equipment you can anticipate that is going to be there for 25 to 50 years. So again we are having a problem of receiving apples and oranges. I think this is the thing we must talk about and recognize the demand for 'flexibilities and the application of what we are doing in order to attract the greatest amount of financial base that we can .for our City. Councilman Gillum: I am afraid I disagree with Councilman. Lloyd and Council- man Nichols. It is beyond me to sit here and hear you say let's stand still or back up, and that is what you are saying in some of these areas, Looking at the history of the City we have had to upgrade every zone we have because of the type of problems we have had. This is the reason we started on these changes. For example - underground utilities. This is an •added expense but it does add and enhance the shopping center. We sit here and talk about the great city we are going to build and leave and how people want a City of Beautiful Homes, and then we say - maybe we are too strong in our standards for commercial, maybe we should compete with La Puente and Covina. I don't want to compete with either City. To the best of my knowledge I don't know of any large shopping center or business that has gone out of the City because of our development standards. Sears didn't go up there for that reason, .as we all know. Mr.. Lloyd hit it on the head - it is the price of property, Maybe some of these standards are a little n,�er restrictive but if we stand still we are going backwards. And every City around us is now going through. an upgrading - if you read the papers. And there must be a reason for it. Can anyone tell me of one business that has left the City- because of our - 3 - ADJ. Co Co 12-23-68 Page Four AMENDMENT NO, 94 Continued restrictions? No matter what we -put on somebody is going to object - landscaping, walls, trees, somebody will object. The majority of things we put on will enhance and attract .people .to our shopping centers, Personally I don't want it to be another La Puente. There are a couple of areas that do disturb me but the overall program as far as upgrading the zoning ordinance I would support. If we lower our standards we are going to get Taco Houses, 7-11 Markets, Service Stations, and the like - that is my feeling.° Councilman. Nichols: I am sorry Mr. Gillum misunderstood the intent of my remarks. I certainly don't want to compete with the old downtown area of La Puente - I meant competing with the dollars of the people living in the communities. I think we compete with business in Covina and. LaPuente, but in dollars spent by people, I didn't mean to compete in that sense at all. My only thought was that perhaps it was time we did look at this concept because I have heard -people in this room and comments from people in the community and they all ask the same question - why one goes one place - are we tiro restrictive? I heard some of the developers make those charges and statements and .I don't know but I don't think the answer to the question I raise is to turn and say "well it just cant be - there is no effect" and let it go at that. I think it is something we need to look at because if we are wrong it is pretty hard to undo the damage in the terms of results. What I have had in my mind - we talked about the Planned Development Ordinance - where are we on this subject at the present time? • Mr. Menard: I think we have to clarify the issue as to what you are talking about and what the Council has talked about in the past, The Planned Development, .as I think I understand how the Council has been talking about for some period of time is really now represented to a more adequate degree .in the neighborhood commercial zone. The Planned Development unit applies only to residential planned uses and a small amonnt of commercial like the fifth floor of a highrise might have commercial in it. These t1i g s will be submitted to the Planning Commission in a few weeks, Councilman Nichols: About 4 or 5 years ago we began studying the deep lot area and about that time a large number of real estate firms in the area began buying up lots. That area has a combination of homeowners - some 15 to 20 years on their present property and some absentee owners - quite a mix up. As we began talking about the R-3 ordinance zone, .as certain suggestions have been made for changing both as linked to the Glendora Avenue and the deep lot report, if the recommendatbns were implemented it would create certain standards for development in that zone that do not apply any- where around the City. Lot sizes, minimum lot widths - very soon as soon as financing in the Valley eases we will see a tremendous upsurge in building in the valley and the thought came to me that if you create a situation where you make these zones more .restrictive that when the upsurge came for this type of development isn't it logical that within a given market area that the developer goes to where he can develop the property at the least cost and those -areas that do not have a basic • effect on the quality or nature of his development. If that is true then I said do we have in our Ordinance requirements that on a dollar for dollar, (developer for developer basis, it cost the developer more to develop an identical type of structure in our City than a mile across the line? Now that is the ruib of my concern - I don't really know and this doesn't tell me that. Is it more costly to serve the public in our. City than by moving a half mile away? If it is then it is bound to have an effect. Now we are talking about R-3 lots having to have certain minimum widths - very few of the properties that we are talking about rezoning now are that way. - 4 - ADJ. C.C. 12-23-68 Page Five AMENDMENT NO. 94 Continued What happens if you .put a requirement on a piece of property .that the current owner cannot advantageously develop it? What happens to the property? We talk about blight areas - how they .get to be that way and in my mind the requirements we are putting on our areas could be leading in that direction. Are we temporarily slowing down development? .C�ErPfmmediate neighbors getting an edge on us because of our requirements? This is something we have to resolve; we have to take a look at the. Ordinance we have and reassure ourselves that we are not being hurt or if we are that we are in .a way we want to be hurt. Councilman Gillum: Well taking two pieces of R- 1 identical deep lots and using Walnut or La Puente and we were to bring our standards in line with their's - there is one factor we cannot control and that is the price of the property. I believe it is our responsibility as elected officials to select the standards and sometimes we may line them too high. And then suppose we do set our standards with the surrounding communities and the developer says but your property is still too high, and then say eventually the property in those areas goes up and we have lowered our stand.:ards. I don't think the standards of Walnut or-LaPuente are what I would like to see in our City. Councilman Nichols: On the other hand I see a large amount of commercial type development right on the edge of this City, just over the line, and it doesn't all look terrible. Councilman, Lloyd: On page 2 of the report it says - ""it is true that West Covina development standards are more restrictive in certain areas, namely than in .Covina or -La Puente, • however if West Covina has lost any development because of the high development standards we should ask ourselves the question - did we want this development? To begin with developers who complain about our standards are generally those who construct marginal facilities, large developers prize West Covina and want to construct here where they know their investment will be protected, etc..... " The 'key phrase here is "did we want tHs development to begin with", and "developers who complain about our standards are generally.those seeking to construct...... a" I thnk this statement is wrong and I would take the writer of this mateiia 1 to task in making an assumption which he doesn't know to be true. Thissimply says all guys -are bad and that is not true because a man investing his money in any given area is going to put his dollars in where they will be most productive to himand if he doesn't meet the standards of development for that type of business he is not going to do business and if he doesn't do business he is not going to put his dollars into it. At least I assume people do market studies before goy g into these things. It says '.'quality developers prize West Covina and want to construct her(e" and the fact remains that quality developers are not coming in here and I think we have a very specific point and that is. Sears. I think the reason Sears is where it is is because the land costs 3.re prohibitive in West Covina. Perhaps what we should be talking about is .land costs rattier than what we are . Truthfully I do not know. I wish I did. Frankly `think it is worthy of` real 'co -sideration because development that occurs in the East. San Gabriel Talley certainly should have given West Covina consideration whether they land here or not and if they don't I would like to know why. I think this is what Councilman Nichols is talking about and certainly this is what I am talking about. It seems like we are all in accord. There is actually no diversity of opinion here. I even think Mr. Menard is not the bad guy - in his thinking he is trying to help us find the way to bring business in. He is �re a professional planner and as such he wants this type of development. I think we all in consonant - it is just a case of finding out at what point we want to enter th game. One other point. We have a very fine. Commission-in-tke Pd,annin Commission and. yet: on irectx n to their recommendations. I think one of the reasons for this meeting is to say what +-5- ADJ. C.C. 12-23-68 Page Six AMENDMENT NO, 94 - Continued we wanted. I think this is another point that deserves consideration. Mayor Gleckmano Let me say the statements being made are done so by the individual councilmen and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the two councilmen that have not spoken yet. I did not want our silence to infer that we were wholeheartedly in agreement. I would like to hear from the Commission - as to some of the points brought out by Council up to now regarding this specific thought - are we being too restrictive in our development standards? In the particular hearings which you people hear they always involve a Precise Plan and once you approve in many cases it doesn't come to use How about Variances -- what type of variances have been sought on certain requirements? Are we having a certain amount of people coming in saying - if I could get this or. that I would develop? I thnk when it comes to land values thereis no doubt in my inind that it is the number 1 problem in our Community. It is interesting to note in your report - Mr. =iVlenard - that no where along the lines, as well as from the Planning Commission has there come a recommendation to this City Council to look and compare what the other cities are doing as far as making land available when land is so high priced. Councilman Gillum and I sat with Mr.. Brutocao and Mr. Shulman today and they quibbled back and forth about the price this guy wanted and .that one wanted; etc, etc. , and that was what was holding up the whole. deal., etc. , but when I said to them that the City's position was to promote and develop the city's commercial and if they both felt they had gold on their land and couldn't come • to some bargaining agreement with Penny's or the other outfit that wanted to develop, then it was the obligation of the City Council and Planning Commission to seek out other areas within t;he City to put these very same locations on at a price that these people could acquire, and I never saw such a tremendous reversal. One party said - I know we want $500, 000 but let them offer $300, 000 and maybe we can talk about it. I think this is really the basis for any .type of development we are seeking for this community. If we don't seek out some type of development to bring down the prices of existing vacant land that is available we are always going to have this problem. Both when I was on the Planning Commission and now the Council I hear - look at all the vacant land we have zoned - why should we give the man that type of zoning - look at all. the vacant zoning of that type. Nobody said but if we make this it will then develop or they will sell it for $1.50 or $2. 00 a foot so it will be developed instead of saying all this land is priced at $5. 00 or $6. 00 a foot and it will remain vacant for the next 50 years or until some billionaire comes :al.ong. I think this is the basic crux of the whole problem. The developmental standards - in that I think Mr. Nichols has a very good point, but this is the next thing they are looking at, not the prime thing. They say alright the land is going to cost us more but if the land is going to cost us more then they want to build cheaper on that land or they can't give you a quality development on high priced land and still expect to compete with a 10 mile or even 15 mile radius let alone a 5 miles radius. So if we can't do one thing, then I agree with all three gentlemen that have spoken. But first of all we have to decide how we are going to force the price of land down, and if we can't will we be willing to accept lesser standards on the high priced property just to get at developed? And the third thing - which Councilman Lloyd spoke of and which I am not entirely clear on.... . I don't feel as the City Council that we should say to your Commissioners this is the line we want you to follow. Because your job is one of interpretation of our Ordinances and our job is interpretation of our Ordinances politically. And if we tell you how we want to go we wouldn't get what I am concerned with and that is the area of good planning for 5 - 10 or 15 years from now. Let us knock it down. As far as I am concerned you fellows do your job, do good planning and 'pass it on to us and we may think it is ridiculous and knock it out because we can't live with it politically, but that doesn't make you gentlemen wrong. You may be 10076 :right and we 10076 wrong, but as far as I am concerned my feelings are I am not going to tell you how to go. -6 A DJ. C.C. 12-23-68 AMENDMENT NO. 94 - Continued Page Seven Go the way you have been going. I think you have been doing a good job. You recommend to us what you say the City should have-5 - 10 years from now and if we can't live with it politically then we, have our own conscience that we have to live with. • Those are my feelings. When we talk about development standards I think we have to really come down to specifics, We can't say -this is too tough and that is too good. I agree we don't want to compete with Arcadia or Claremont, if we did we would have to back up another 20 years, We want to compete in a growing competitive commercial residential market to make We-st Covina a well rounded community. From that point on when. we come to developmental standards - are there particular standards in this Ordinance that a man could go to Covina, Baldwin Park, or LaPuente and build something we would like to see in this City but because of some specific recommendation as far as requirements that the others don't have and we do have ,and for that specific requirement we have lost them? I still can't believe a guy can come in here at $4. 00 a foot and build it there at $2. 00 a foot and then on top of that have to build one and a half times the quality that he would have to build in another city and still compete. Councilman Chappell: First of all I would like to say - and I am not too deeply involved yet -.I think this idea of .the community of West Covina being so far superior to anything else around here is certainly erroneous and I have, ample proof of that in my travels. I think the reason we want to look these ordinances over is to find out actually are we too restrictive but the only way we are going to find out is by contacting people that could have come to West Covina and didn't. And I am talking about big developments. It doesn't mean. that much .to them to build in West Covina. We are going to have to seek out these people that we want to come in to our community. I don't know if these requirements are too restrictive but I think we have to tie them in with people that haven't come in. Make a survey and ask them - why didn't you come here? We might find it is not the cost of land that kept them out. I am concerned with the .fact that Covina is now surpassing us in sales tax revenue when we have been leading them for years. I saw a big beautiful furniture store being built over there, .I don't know if we wanted that here or not, but I am still saying we are going behind and we should know why. My biggest concern is why Covina a town of 30, 000 people is passing us in sales tax and other revenues. Everyone of those businesses built are jobs and additional revenue. We have a Sizzling Platter in our Community they hire 3 to 5 people, yet I was told by some friends of mine that Van de Camp's because their little windmill couldn"t turn in West Covina - they aren't interested in coming here and they hire somewhere in the neighborhood of 65 people in their restaurant - yet we let -Sizzling Platter come in that hires 3 to 5 people.. -.So because we wouldn't let that little windmill go around it costs us 60 jobs or more in this community and a lot more in revenue and they are a high quality restaurant. That is just one thing that we should look .into. Councilman Nichols: What has been said by you gentlemen is really what I wanted to say only you said it better. I think we are at a good point in our development where we should stop • and see what we have achieved - what we are doing - and it may well be that we will say we think it is going to work out in the long haul g.6i.this route. Maybe the Chamber of Commerce should be doing these things. We have pumped dollar after dollar in to the Chamber in the past few years and in my opinion there has been a lot of lip service but no actual commercial developments; or whether we can direct staff to go out and make a survey in these areas? Maybe when we got the facts in we would find that Van de Camps never did consider West Covina but picked that spot originally. Mayor Gleckman: We are now at just about the end of the new General Plan, and that General Plan as we have all agreed in the past will act as a guAde but I think Councilman Chappell hit 7 - ADJ. C.C. 12-23-68 Page Eight AMENDMENT N.O. 94 Continued it on the head .too. We as a Council in adopting this General Plan have to decide what type of .community we want. Maybe we didn't want -Sears here. Maybe we didn't want some of these developments .that they happened to have an area for to build in otther places. I know some of the centers have been put in residential areas. We have^ had conversation after conversation at this City Council level regarding commercial areas outside of this so-called downtown concept,_multiple developments alongside of the freeway. I say you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say we want to build a commercial area providing they go in this little corner - because then we have done -more to drive up the land values and chase away developments more than anybody else. You can't blame the land owner, you can't blame the Commission or staff. The elective body of this community is supposedly charged with the responsibility of shaping this community and going along with the idea of lip service the Council then in its charge and its responsibility should come out as I stated once before - take all your vacant parcels of land in this community and tell these people what they can build on it, what we will allow on it, what we will encourage on it, so we can get this so-called show on the road, or let's fold up our shop and say these are the only areas we will entertain anything in and forget about competing with Covina, Walnut or LaPuente and just have the community as often referred to "The City of Beautiful Homes." And forget about inviting anymore commercial, .anymore multiple development, and quit talking -about other cities passing us in sales tax and flay they are doing it because we decided this was the kind of city we have planned for the next 10 or -15 years and not worry about getting our cake and eating it. I have sat at meeting -after meeting and I say the number .1 problem lies in the City Council - if they don't take the initiative to do these things nobody else is going to,:'. You gentlemen instead of looking at these Ordinances and these problems and this General Plan and continually saying we should have, we could have, we would have - if we don't initiate it and take the action - I say then quit kidding yourselves and forget it. Commissioner Jackson: After hearing all of the comments I think there is con- currence on the part of the Council that really the price of land is it and not what we have done with it. Maybe we didn't allow the windmill to turn, but you have an Ordinance that says there will be no flashing lights or moving signs, etc. , and.I o n sure we have adequate restaurants that don't require moving signs. If we gave in on the windmill then you couldn't deny it to other people with a similar plea. You couldn't stop the flashing lights. Variance - really wasn't meant to be a general thing and I don't think we have seen much on variances. It Its pretty well regulated and resolves much around the sign itself. I don't believe there is anyone of us here that doesn't want to see better commercial development and more of it in the City. We live on the revenue. I don't think our requirements of tightening up on the landscaping., greenery, walls, etc. , hurt us. Maybe we have gone too far but this really is an incidental cost to the developer. We are not clads ng- a, great added cost to a developer by requiring these. Looking at your better developments such as Broadway and Fashion Square - they put large investments in those places and they wanted to make them attractive. I am sure.Sears would never have objected to any of the restrictions as far as development. And where would we have put Sears? There isn't that kind of land available here. Also you talked about deep lots. It looks logically like we could get some factory development there and the people there are generally in favor of it. I think everybody agrees on what they want but it is on how to get it. I don't think it is the place of the Commission here to do that. We don't know who is feeling out about land. I don't think it is within. our particular responsibility to seek out people.. We do like to look at the developing of a City and see it develop nicely. Look at the Central Business District, there is a place where r) ADJ'. G.C. 12-23-68 AMENDMENT NO. 94 Continued Page Nine -the price of ground is high and what kind of development do you have on it? Why is there so much vacant land - it is not because of the restrictions on it. • Mayor Gleckrnan:. I hate to interrupt but we have a scheduled regular Council meeting at 7:30. I feel we should schedule another meeting to continue this conversation. (Council and Commission members,agreed to .another meeting at Council's direction. Commissioner Jackson to have the floor at the continuance of meeting. ) adjourned at 7:30 p.m. • ATTEST: Deputy City Clerk 1�1 On motion made, seconded and carried meeting APPROVED MAYOR