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11-06-1967 - Regular Meeting - Minutes
MINUTES OF THE ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL CITY OF WEST COVINA, CALIFORNIA NOVEMBER 6, 1967. The adjoarned regular meeting of .the City Council was called to order by Mayor Krieger in the West Covina City Hall at 7031 p.m. The Mayor stated that this was a Joint meeting of the City Council and the Planning Commission, The Mayor stated that it was his sad duty to report for the record to�nig-ht thedeath of our City Attorney, Mr, Harry Williams,, ® "I know that we all share a common loss as well as a disbelief in this particular tragic event, and speaking from experience .I am sure we all share as to his competence and -inte-ggrity -and -d-edioati-on to -his position in the City and responsibility as Cit Attorney, I am sure this community is ._going to recognize, realize and appreciate the loss and value of this- man.for many years to come. I would ask the City Manager on behalf of the City Council to _make the necessary arrangements to ppresent a floral tribute at the funeral of the City Attorney and I would ho a that as many members of the Councils Commissions and Boards and City Staff will be able to attend the memorial service on Wednesday at 2 porno It Mayor Krieger asked Councilman Gillum to lead the Pledge of Allegiance and askedg that in the absence of a minister to give the invocation, that everyone remain standing for one minute in silent tribute to. the City Attorney, ROLL CALL Present- Mayor Krieger, Councilmen Gillum, Nichols, Gleckman Snyder, Commissioners Adams, Mayfield, Jackson, Davis, Also Present: George Aiassa, City Manager Herman R. Fast, Public Service Director. Owen Menard, Planning Director Ray Windsor, Administrative Assistant Lela Preston, City Clerk George Zimmerman, As6lta City Engineer JOINT MEETING WITH PLANNING COMMISSION Mayor Krieger welcomed the Planning Commission members to the joint meeting with the Council, and advised that the agenda with regard to the subJect matter, substance, procedure and form for this evening is entirelyy oppen for any matters that are on the individual or collective minds of tte members of the Council and the same invitation is extended to the Planning Commission members. Councilman Gleckman-, I was one of the councilmen that requested a meeting with our Planning Commission and I requested it to be on the basis of a knock down drag out brawl, rather than a formal meeting,, where we watch what we say because of the presence of citizens and newspapers. I don't think we have- had one of these and I think it is bout time we do because there seems to be shaping up between the City ouncil and the Planning Commission in my -pin on, either a lack of direction 6n the part o this City Council to net only the Planning Commission but to some of -the other Commissions, as to what we would expect of the people serving on these different Commissions as far as the workload, and thinking and that type of thing as faf as the future' of this community is concerned o 0 1 ADJ. C. C. 11-6-67 Page Two JOINT MEETING - Continued I have been unhappy with several of our Commissions and primarily with the Planning Commission, and the reason is because I don't feel they are doing the job. I feel we have on our Commission, Bob and John, who have probably had as much, if not more, experience than any other person that could be serving on a Planning Commission in any community throughout this State. Unfortunately Vern is not here tonight or I would include him in that group because of his past experience. I don't know whether. it is a lack of direction on our part, or it is your idea that you don't know what we want, or you are try- ing to be political in some of your aims, or else you don't: have the time to spend on some of the ideas that have been brought before you in the last year and a half. I have gone personally, myself, to the Planning Director and said to him - look, you plan for whatever blue sky a community of our size should look forward to, give us some of the new ideas, give us some of the new ways to do things and never mind about 10 years ago this was this, or 5 years ago this was this, but where do we go from here? Our responsibility to this community is the future of this community and not what is good this year or next year or the year after', but 15 or 20 years hereafter, or even 5 years. I haven't seen this Commission take it by the horns and say let's tackle it. I have seen more of an attitude of well let's do it later, or why are you bringing this to us now? In all due respect to the Planning Director, and whether he dial this on his own or not, I am saying I have gone to him saying I was unhappy with the Planning Director's activity in the .past prior to him coming to this City and only from the standpoint that he was involved politically and tried to reduce the workload so the Commission could get their work done between 70 30 and 9:30 in the evening. I don't think this community or any community can be planning or looking forward to a future that can be planned between 7. 30 and 9. 30 on two Wednesdays a month. •I realize the General Plan came along and I understand the workload of the General Plan, but I don't think the workload has been that great that we can set everything else aside and just work on the General Plan. For instance, there is the Planned Unit Development which is something that has been kicking around for 3 or 4 years and has been given to you gentlemen in the past, so I find in checking past minutes. I disagree with the idea of hiring consultants to do our General Plan, to come before you for some guidelines and advice, someway to go, and instead of you getting in there and really pitching as to what our future should be and trying to give him some direction, you take the easy way out. Now this is my personal impression and maybe I am under the wrong impression because of you people being volunteers and appointed and not elected, maybe I am asking too much as a City Councilman, but as far as I am concerned the Planning Commission should do just what it is basically set up to be and that is a Planning Unit and sounding board for the Council. If these things don't get to the Council because they are knocked down at the Planning. Commission level, then we never know that they are even in the planning stages. And that is why I went to our Planning, Director, to find out why these things haven't come to the Council and the reason being was that the Commission has not looked at it, that the Commission set this off, that the Commission suggested they hear from certain experts in the field before they make a decision. You know as well as I do that we can't get five of you together in one night let alone a particular night to bring in special- ists to talk to you about certain things thatshould be planned for this community. As far as I, am concerned and I am saying it sincerely, these things have to emanate from you in order for it to get any place in our community. I don't think it has. I think the meetings you have had have been on the basic things that normally come before you to make up an • agenda so you can get out by 8. 30 and 9. 30 at night, and I don't think that is doing justice to we as a City Council who are trying to build a forward looking progressive City with new ideas - we must plan for the future. I am not talking only for the people that live here now but for the thirty, forty, or fifty thousand - 2 - ADD Q0, 11-6-67 Page Three J01 UM 2TING - Continual that might like to come to this Oommunity. I am talking residentipi and I should also be talking commeroial, A talk about a Core Plan `.,n Our General Plan atd some of the things referred to in the Core Plan - 0als is fine, but how about time schedules? We are not talking 30 years, 20 years - I want to know -what is going to happen in *1,;4.1Le, r.,,e::x"t 10 ysars; Where are we going? What are You fellows looking towards? What can we help you with? What can we do? We haven't received, from my knowledge, anything from this Planning Commission In the last year or year and a half that we can delve into that isn't an ordinary rum. of -the mill hearing case. I am Upset about it. I have other things I could dig up but I am Just leaving this as Some groundwork for this Cummission. If I am out of line, i am sorry, but this is the waY I fe&� I talked to Bob Jackson, I told Bob as far as I was concerned I was unhappy with the Commission. and. he asked me "why" and told him why, and he said " Why not come down and talk to us" -'we'll we are here. This Is the only place we can, legitimately have a meeting and the nice language that we hove had in the past - well I am taryin I to set the pattern this evening fur you follows to open up and the rest of tho council to open up So we can get some of this up and aDove the table and not have to worry about being nice to each other and picking the Noe words, Let's get the message across to each other oo We oat get in there and get the job done, Councilman Snyderg I don't know when we have ever tried to be Noe - bIlt you mentioned "involved politically" and I am not sure you meant that in the full strength of the wnrd regarding the Planning 411 Director or In reference to the Planning Commission. Maybe they were ijnwitttingly involved but T don't think anybody overtly or covertly set Out to be involved politically. It is quite true there has been a low load of hearings over the past year and this really would have been the time to begin to get a planned development ordinance done that really had to be aet aside in the past because of the heavy load of wor& Maybe YOU axe getting more hearings at the Planning Ommission level that we are but we are not getting any hearings lately and going home earlier than we used to and again it seems to me this would really have been the time to have finished some of this workload that was held over. There may have been reasons for this, I don't know. With regard to the consultants and the General Plan - I am not sure that even the Council drew Up a set of guidelines fur the relationship between the Consultant of the General Plan and the Planning Commission and the Council, and if this is not clear, this relationship, I think that is one thing we should clear up tonight. I personally feel we have a good Planning Commissicn but I would like to see that relationship cleared Up, at least to my understanding, Commissioner Davisg As a junior member of the Planning QmmiSsion I Would like to make a few cOmmsntsu 11' first Couple of meetings •on the Commission we did have a Pr8ttY 10W agenda aud we got out pretty early but I have noticed under the leadership of John we have moved ahead faster and we have had some Worthwhile eassiots. Mr. Adams hag done a pretty good Job. We axe currently Planning a Saturday session regardtg a planned unit development, I have personally Visited 2 or 3 planned unit developments In the last couple of months and I have a feeling there Is a good deal of work going on amongst the commissioners that you are not bearing about, to bring this about, I have personally come to the conclusion that this is an area that we have to move into, that it 10 a very logical things for our flat land areas as Well as olur hillside areas, " 3 , ADJ. Ca Co 11-6-67 Page Four JOINT MEETING ® Continued Commissioner Adams: � Ma o I had in mind that art of this m er$�,ng would be devoted o bringing you up to dates I don't expect that you are aware of some of the efforts that are now going on. Perhaps I should have made the remarks at the beginning of the meeting as to what we are doing and what we are planning to dos I would take tome exception to the statement that we as a Commission are not willing to spend the necessary time to do our job. I would po-int out to you many of these things have come to you, others are on the way ups Going over the past 6 or 9 months we have spent a lot of time and our big effort the first part of the year was to send to you a revised updated, hopefully, a more workable and livable sign ordinance. We have had study sessions on Planned Unit Development. We have a possible rough draft of a Planned Unit Development. We first wanted to try this on with people that have had the occasion to live with such an ordinance. It certainly has many advantages and has been accepted in many communities. We certainly could go to most any City and pull one out of the books but it has been our purpose to draft our own ordinance and sit down with the people that we feel, are most knowledgeable and are living with this and in this way I will have an immediate meeting with a Planning Commissioner', hopefully, a Planning Director, and a person who has had occasion to finance such projects and finally a man who I think can probably be considered as the best recognized in the field as -being a specialist in this type of development. We feel this is going to be time well spent and we hope we can get off some of the problem areas before we embark on such a program. We have spent considerable time in the last few months with Resolution No. 567 having to do with landscaping and it has been our purpose to • try and clarify and simplify and also establish this policy for the guideline for developers so they know what we do expect in our precise plan ordinance, commercial, and multi -family developments. This has been somewhat of a loss for all the time it has been on our -.books and.we thought it was time to lay out guidelines without being too specific on some of the ideas we would like to see on Precise Plans, We have members, in common with the Council, who are participating in considerable outside committees. Commissioner Mayfield is the Chairman of the Transportation Subcommittee of the. EoSoGoVoPoC. I am participating as a member in the - Sign and Billboard Subcommittee, I expect our remaining members will be called upon to participate in these efforts as work gets underway. Our staff, as you know, have participated as liaison with the various Blue Ribbon Committees and spend a lot of time on the Huntington Beach - Freeway Committee and also spend a lot of time with the General Plan Blue Ribbon Committee. Mrs Menard_9 I think has brought different direc$,on to the Planning De-partment. It has been his efforts to prepare administrative procedures which will make his Department work smoother and the same time provide better service to the City. We would be most happy to fill in details on any of these efforts. I left the General Plan to the last and as you know we had a public meeting where the sketch plan was presented. The last official action we took was a resolution which in effect endorsed the objectives which were spelled out in pretty broad terms. This gave the consultant, as far as we are concerned, enough guidelines to proceed with his detailed studies, which he is now doing. The next meeting with the consultant is on the • 29th of November, Mr, Menard has had occasion to spend time at the consultants office, and there has been an exchange of communication both personally and orally since this effort began. We are still looking to a, completion date of sometime late next summer. Those remarks I feel are pertinent in bringing you up to date. If there are any particular questions or comments on the efforts I briefly described we would be happy to discuss them. ® 4 ADJ. C,- C, 11®6-67 Page Five JOINT MEETING m Continued Councilman Gleckman: I felt when you talked about the Sign Ordinance - I really do feel that when it came to the Council that after reviewing your minutes on' the Sign Ordinance that the Council dial as much if not more work on the Sign Ordinance as the Planning Commission. I am talking about the way I feel, not the way the Council feels. I feel the Transportation Committee for the E. S,. G. U. P„C,, , and the Bill. Board Committee - this is all fine and well., but I am talking about the progress of this Community and the things that we have had in the Kopp-er as a priority list over the last 2 or 3 years„ .I, don't see any accomplishment with the exception of the things that pop up, that we as a Council have -sent back to you and said look we want this sent to us as soon as possible, like yesterday, The Planning Commission in the past has always had some type of a time schedule for all these particular things,, so we as a council wouldn't have to say - "what are you doing?" We would get these reports and we would know when to expect some accomplishment. I haven't seen this but maybe 6 or 8 months ago, I saw one of these schedules. Some of these projects should have been completed by now and they are not completed,_ I agree with the General Plan coming along you fellows have had extra meetings, I am not talking about this. This was something we all looked forward to that we were going to have to do when it came along. I am talking about all these other things we have had in the hopper. Commissioner Adams: Can we be specific? Councilman Gleckman: Yes ® Planned Unit Development, Planned • Commercial Development, City Planning, Freeway, Land Use as far as Orange and Pacific, for example. Some of the things that would characterize this particular City for its future. We have expounded and gone ahead with the Civic Center which -is going to have to be planned accordingly, what's going to move in conjunction with it? Where is the City going once this has been accomplished? I think we have many areas that we could hit as a planning unit which we haven't touched upon, Councilman Snyder: May I comment here? Perhaps, and I don't ever remember its being done, perhaps it is part of the ordinance or part of the Planning Director's job, but has there ever been a time when we in effect charge or in fact state to the Planning Commission what your job is or what you are to accomplish and whether that is to fit in with recommendations as to pure planning or whether you are to take care of �roblems as they aril or �o out an � seep problems b or the arcis and ook ahead. As a matter o policy don t remember e �ouncl giv ng a charge to the Planning Commission individually or as members as to what we expect as a matter of policy. I know it is set down according to the State Law as to what a Planning Commission does, Councilman Gleckman: That is what I prefaced my remarks with Dr. Snyder, as to whether there is a lack of direction by this Council, as to what we do expect and I think that -is why we are here this evening and I don't think we will get down to some of those things until, we get into some of the things we do expect. Councilman Gillum: As I stated when we decided to have this meeting, there are some areas that dis- turb me. The thing I see, gentlemen, at times you start out in a direction and you have been able to complete some of them and it may again be a lace: of direction on our part my interpretation of the Planning Commission is that anything that comes 5 ADJo Co Co 11-6-67 Page Six 0 • JOINT MEETING m Continued before the Commission, a hearing or things of this type, the Planning Commission is to judge whether the applicant proves that he deserves a change and meets the necessary requirementIs and I have had the feeling at times that you for some reason have beer, overlooking this aspect as far as the applicant p-roving or disproving. At times it seemed something else entered into it. Commissioner Jackson. For instance? Councilman Gillum-, Not any one particular case Mr. Jackson, but it seems at times that an applicant has proven that he has met all the requirements for instance to receive a variance in a sign or change of zoning and the discussion between members of the Commission, in my thinking, ignores in some respects the actual - does he or does he not? I can't judge each one of you or what you have in your mind but there are certain guidelines set down by this City that a person has to fall into and fulfill, Again this is in my judgment, I can't look at it in your thinking butat times I get feeling that it'is not completely whether they do or do not meet these requirements. Commissioner Jackson-, That has always been the problem ® a variance is a real problem. Councilman Gillums This is true and I have to agree with Mr. Gleckman, it may again be our fault, but it is very frustrating, You appear to be ready -to jump out there and go after these things that we think that maybe we have conveyed to you that we want, but maybe wehaven°to In some of these study sessions we discussed these things, these ideas that are off in the future and gave them serious consideration but then they seem to die and not come back to us with any concrete evidence that we should or should not go in this direction. In one of the Study Sessions, according to this economic research report we have 3 years to set our pattern in this community and I think as it says, if we don't they are going to bypass use You can see it all around use I think this Planning Commission and this City Council are the ones that have to step fo.rward.in this community, in this valley;, and establish what is go-ing to be- tha guideline from here to the .next 10 or 15 years and slamt'times it is going to take a bold step on our part, Condominiums or things of this type, anew concept in residential - but I think it is our responsibility to this community to be the ones to set the pattern for the Valley. Again it may be that we have not conveyed this to you but to the best of my knowledge this is the second or third meeting in the 18 months that I have been on the Council. Maybe we haven't been direct enough in saying to you that we want to establish these guidelines, :_:but I do see times when you start in this direction and for some reason m m in fact the statement was made in one study session "we don't want to r®ck the boat, I don't think we are ready for this yet." Maybe we are not, but it never got any further than a study session, It never came to us. and this is what we considered or we don°t feel it is proper at this time. These are the things that concern me. Sure, we would all like --to see a certain sense of uniformity in the City but still and all I think there are certain areas we have to give consideration to changes, we have some open land below us, we have hillside we have to give consideration too I know Mr. Menard has been sometimes criticize': for his thinking of things in the future but if we don't think of it and Ito i_t someone around us is going to whether it be residence or business. This is my thinking. I do have to be honest and say that I have seen you take off in a. direction and you have made some good strides, but overall maybe not as quickly as I wanted to. ® 6 ADJo Co Ca 11-6-67 Page Seven JOINT MEETING ® Continued Councilman Gleckman: Mr. Menard, what has happened to the workload guide that your predecessor had and have you set up any guidelines as to things that we would like to see accomplished and as to when, how, and where? • Mr. Menard, Planning Director: One of the first things I asked of the Planning Commission was to remove this particular type of vehicle from the staff back. The main reason was the amount of time by the staff that went into keeping up this kind of a vehicle. We found out we were spending an untold amount of time and in my estimation an unreasonable amount of man hours on a very sophisticated chart of what we were doing and by making the chart so sophisticated we were not doing the work we should have been doing. The Planning Commission asked that I submit a quarterly report and these quarterly reports have been forth- coming. From the point of view of administration I felt the very long flow chart and the amount of time that went into it and quite frankly in asking the staff m is it honest, does it really represent the man hours you spend, they said t0no it is not honest", ® so I tried to get away from it. Mayor Krieger, I think the level of discussion we have tonight so we don't focus it on the direction Of criticism is really one of analysis. I would like to think of it as rsac9cing a,' poi,-nt of sophistioa® tion now both on City Council level and the Planning Commission level because we are getting to be a fairly sophisticated type of community in •terms of the problems that we are facing now. Maybe this is what frightens us more than anything else, not our capacity to deal with them but the capacity to anticipate these problems. I don't think there is any valid criticism that can be made or that is intended to be made by anyone on the Council as to the mechanical function of the Planning Commission. I think in terms of your fixed responsibilities having to do with matters that by law come before you, you have fcTainently fulfilled your requirements. I believe the hearings before the Planning Commission are conducted in an orderly fashion on evidence, or facts and on determinations by the Planning Commission as to those matters that are within your prPT,,i ce and suitably and duly recorded to the Council accordingly for the final decision which is our responsibility to make. Of course, minutes never quite reflect the full conte.it that provided the discusssion or deliberation or judgment, you won't find thhose in minutes. On the other hand, perhaps we are mirroring our own concern in areas that are as I see somewhat more sophisticated and that is the planning aspects of this Oity. I don't know of any, and I am not detracting from the importance of any other Commission or Boards, -but I don't know of any other Commission or Board that we have in this City that is as important or critical to the community as the Planning C i sio o I think f u went out �ge bl nd asled the about wR� Lomm s- sions and loaYas we nave, i�eyp on know o any o, er they know of the Planning Commission and if you were to rate in priority of importance to the community at large which is the most important Board of Commission we have, I think they would uniformly say the Planning Commission. If you look to the workload of the Council you have to come to the irrefutable conclusion that most of our workload •from Commissions and Boards come from the Planning Commission. Matters of importance nine times out of ten are matters that came to us from the Planning Commission, BUt what does concern me and this is a little harder to verbalize than an area of criticism, because tt is not intended to be an area of criticism but of analysis, A11 too often on she City Council it has been my experience and. I don't know whe'Lher it.is shared by my colleagues or not, but we don't have time to think a lot of times of the future. We are so immersed in the present day to day operations of this City on the policy making level that we don't have time 7 AD J.-o C o . C e 11-6-67 Page Eight JOINT MEETING m Continued to look ahead to see if the general, programs and pattarns and projections really do make as much sense as the individual cases -we are deciding. Maybe unfairly so, but I.think realistically and necessarily so we look to the Planning Commission as the paramount commission to bring us an . awareness and anticipation of problems, projects and programs in this community and maybe this more than any other aspect of it concerns me whether the Commission itself feels, and I put this as a question, do you really think you are reaching out and looking into the future of this community? Looking beyond the City Council because we are not talking about the 5 guys sitting on the Council and their responsibility. You have the same responsibility we do and that is to the community at large, not the community we have, but the community we want to have. In other words do -you think in your own mind, your own body that you are anticipating this community or are you basically waiting for assignments from the Council? Because if it is the latter, if you are waiting for this workload from the city council then I think the charge is justified, in not doing your job. You can answer that question better than we can There are many aspects of this community's life that deserve a think factory approach and there is nobod-y that comes closer -to a think factory in the life of this community than the Planning Commission. So I would like to receive your responses as a body,or individually, to this particular uestione_ Most of these items that you have checked off Mr. Adams, there s no question that these matters are matters that have received the consideration of the Commission and are either work in process or work submitted to the Council, but I don't recognize any of them as matters that initiated at the Planning Commission level, that weren't matters referred to the Planning Commission by. the Council. Now I don't know of anything that says the Planning Commission can only undertake what the City Council tells it to undertake, or what it wants it to undertake. The first League meeting I went to after being elected as a councilman was were the speaker got up and expounded on the values of a Planning Commission to a City Council and his analogy -which I thought was extremely good and which was what I alluded to that th-a-Planning Commission is much more -o than the City Couh.cil.� they real think factory They are operating on that level of pure . thought and analysis, they aren't going around behind to see what political consequences are flowing from their pronouncements. or enunciations, or recommendations m but they give a challenge to the City Council They goad the City Council and give some impetus to the City Council. Maybe what we feel at times is this lack of a prod, of a goad, or an impetus. To have someone say m "hey, why aren't you thinking of this?" Or m are you thinking of this? Or we started to think of this why don't you fellows think of it? Is that -type of discussion occuring on the Planning Commission?. Councilman Gillum: May I add something to what you are saying? I think this City has reached a point where we have to turn a corner. This is my own personal opinion. We were a small town when I moved here, but I don't think the City of West Covina has any choice, we are going to be a large city and I think we have to plan and turn this corner and truly become the "Headquarters" city. When I say "Headquarters" city and I am not saying factories and all sort of things, but I think .we have to start thinking in that direction because they are building clear around us and if we don't build these type of things into this community, both commercial and residential, then we are going to become a very overpriced, bypassed community and you can only sap so much out of the homeowners. I think we have reached this point where we have to start thinking in the Core area and some of these other things. On this Core area of actually saying you can only do certain things and it has to go a certain way ® it may be blue-sky and 10 years away but we have to show that we are thinking this way and show that we are going to turn this corner and go this way. My feeling is that if we don't they are going to bypass us and we are going to be sitting here, with a lot of ADJ . C , Ca 11-6-6 7 JOINT MEETING - Continued Page Nine beautiful homes and no way to pay for the things they demand of us. When we reach 1125,000 people - well you have all seen the Police and fire expansion needed, I think we have to do it thinking both of a good solid balance and coneyy to the general community around us and the •general business world ghat we have turned this corner . A lot of this has to do with our saying - we will have a core area and we will attempt to attract insurance for that area, or something of that type, This is my feeling on it. Councilman Gleckman-, Getting back to what the Mayor said much more nicely than I could express itp I would also like to ask the question -a-a to whether the Planning Commission ever engaged in any conversation as far as our parks with regard to upgrading theme or the needs of the community, the streets, the traffic and transportation problems, or the idea of ggetting street improvements in, widened, curbed and guttered? I wonderif they -have discussed what effect annexation would have on the community Or even talked about the type of community we should have and should be orwhetherit is.something they ust thm In and let us kn c out.or 1 t us ch u a 1 the bit. None f these hings, to my know�eilanning, ge have teen forUcing from the Planning Commission to the Council and I think, as the Mayor said, you have to be our think factory. Councilman Snyder-, I wound have to agree that none of these things have been coming recently, but there may be a reason for this. I would also agree with everything the Mayor said with regard to the Planning Commission and their interpretation of both future needs and • future problems, and also future growth. I know from experience in the past that this Planning Commission has operated that way. It was due o ey o �i�' i t e �o ha ��epoike �eaone el�-a�ujen m� �sion al a os a an no cannot operate efficiently unless they are ahead of the Council in most cases and they are probably still ahead of the Council but in some way we have lost communication. Councilman Nichols-, Mr. Mayor I don' h an and I really don t gveave a�y'fEiticng osm add at this time, Commissioner Jackson-, I am ready to accept the criticism We have not necessarily accomplished all the things we could have. There are a lot of things you will find that fall under the General Plana: and it certainly delves into these areas of 15 to 20 years away. The Core Area is certainly of interest immediately. If we want that developed in 20 to 25 years and developed well, we would have to start working at it now. I think this criticism is a little premature . There is one thing I would like to say about the General Plan, normally, and I think twice before when we went into it, this was basically the dutyy of the Planning Commission to work this overwith a consultant. The latest concepts in planning are quite different than those we have seen over the past 10 years and I think Williams, Mocine & Cooke are going to bring in some of these latest concepts. I think we will be able to do a good job and bring to you in this General • Plan a lot which you are proposing we haven't yet. When I came abroad last time we had this list that Mr. Gleckman referred to and it was quite a long list and one of the main problems then was that there wasn't sufficient people on staff to really complete these. in the manner and speed scheduled. I think that you will find that this is one of the reasons this is not done now" We are short of help I don't know how far the Council has gone in maxing assignments to the staff but I do agree that at least ou should know and work with the staff. y ADJ Ca Co 11-6-67 Page Ten JOINT MEETING o Continued Going back to Zoning m I don't believe the Planning Commission has been political, I don't believe any of my positions have been political. I think I have been pretty consistent and I don't think the problem lies in such thing as a v�t fiance And whey you talk about need f r zone changes this Ts a matter pretty much oopinion as you weigh He • facts, I will say that there has not been politics on the Commission to my knowledge. Commissioner Mayfield, I do share with 'the councilmen that have expressed this sense of urgency, I certainly share that. I believe planning is important to the destiny of our City. If we are going to have this regiounal status that we still sed�and have enjoyed in the - pasta I certainly think we have to do some thinking soon. I think that these things that were mentioned here earlier, these ordinances that would facilitate development in our Core area, that would facilitate a development in our undeveloped land area m should be coming.soono I am very hopeful that we will get them to you shortly. I think there is not too many things that I disagree with on the drafts that I have gone through. The Planned Unit Development, I think that is something we have to have very early, I think it is a feature being offered in other communities and probably has, to my mind, more value in the attraction of the people that are going to buy its It does not really provide more occupancy, on the same amount of land, as near as I can determine its We have certain standards of minimum size units whether multiple, cluster, etc., or whatever it is. I believe there are certain minimums that, at least I am not ready to recognize yet. I don't know how you feel. For instance the City of Walnut, I understand had proposals before it not too long ago which they didn't quite accept with regard to sizes. This • is the only problem I can see in that area o the minimum sizes. As far as the arrangement I would favor leaving it to the wade variety of the architect that might come in with a cluster plan that would require use o uiite a size ble piece of land for recr at.ion and aesthetics, and a s it would give you a chance for less ®. a maintenance responsibility. I think we should have it soon. The newer subdivisions are accepting it and if we wish to remain new we have to have its With regard to the Core Development. I feel we do need .these ordinances soon and these of course would come along with the ordinances that follow the adoption of the General Plano If we get to the General Plan by summer, as originally planned, it would mean the ordinances would shortly follow. However, we have had some preliminary discussions on this and could advance it in the next three or four months rather than waits There are certain principles that seem to be the guide -principles there. We talk about this Core Development and in this we recognize that we could have a compatible use side by side research industrial„ regional type commercial, regional type professional buildings and highrise multiple dwellings all in this one core package. The only question is within each;one of these developments what is the minimum size of land area that should be considered by anyone wanting o start one of these types of developments, What sort Qf perimeter evelopment should we require so -that it would be compatible with istin� lad ses unti uch me s n w land uses came? Wh t uld require tno e compat1de wi n other future land uses as i � It would seem to me that we would have to come up with a system that would be flexible enough to take in this variety of ventures all leading toward the development of the City in the central core and yet with a certain amount of freedom. I don't think we can sit down and break the core up into little squares and rectangles and say this little part ought to be such and such, etc., but I think we should be able to work with the freedom of the economy to get a good distribution, In the of the consideration we have a street developmenther in thetundevelopederal areapinnthe hills and along with it a parkway site development which entails 10 • ADJ. Co C. 11®6-67 JOINT MEETING - Continued Page Eleven rese_archin .1 hd..areao The idea is appealing because it makes that arrangemen% a useful development to all the -citizens in the City because it envisions parkside use along with the easement of transportation problems. I think it does pose a question as to how this could be implemented. I would assume it would have to be implemented in the next 10 years, And I would assume there would be some problem as to where this part of the land could be made available at an advantage to the developer or the City would have some maintenance responsibility. Unless this could be done it would seem to me that this would be a problem. It would be something that would have to be of mutual advantage I would think from the funding part, Councilman Snyder,,, May I ask? I should know,, but do we have a statement of goals in regard to our General Plan, or a framework that we expect our consultant and ]Planning Commission to work with?. I don't believe we are going to arrive at any goal unless you state ahead of time what the majority of the people's goals are for a General Plano Commissioner Jackson: Councilman Snyder. - Councilman Gleckman: That is a very good questions I don't think we have. I think we had it previously but this time = no. I think this is absolutely necessary before we go any further. Can we get off the General Plan for just a minute? Commissioner Adams. Without answering that particular question, as a Commission we took action by the objectives of the Citizen's Blue Ribbonution Committeehand infecconcurrencedwith the consultant. I believe there are 5 goals for the General Plano They are quite similar to our present General Plana They are expanded somewhat and misted in some detail. We took official action by Resolution which gave the consultant what he needed to proceed in the right direction and he is now going into these various specific studies to develop such a plan. Councilman Snyder: May I ask thew did the council, receive this Resolution and did we accept this? Mayor Krieger. It was spelled out specifically in terms Of policy goals. Councilman Snyder: No, I am talking about the goals set out simply and without any details m the we have those read? study report was further detailed. Could (AGREED. MR. ADAMS READ THE GOALS,) Councilman Snyder: So -=as a comment then there is really nothing wrong with this set of goals if both the Council and the Planning Commission keep these as their commandments unless of course, other events prove that these should be added or taken away. So we do have a set of goals and as far as_ I can see the Planning Commission has been doing this. In my opinion I would rather see you go a little bit far out in your planning and let circumstances and time have you fall short of your goals. ADi. Co Co 11-6-67 Page Twelve JOINT MEETING - Continued Mayor Krieger. - Lion, of accomplishment, of what Councilman Snyder: - Mayor Krieger,-. But those goals are God, Mather and Country m nobody is^going to accept them, it is a question of implementa® steps do you take to where you want to go? march m step by step, but I didn't Councilman Snyder: Your statement in effect said they were worthless, n , o I didn't say they were worthless , I said they were like God, Mother and Country, A worthwhile banner, under which to say they were worthless,. Well I object to it strongly. Councilman Gillum.- The thing is, and I think we see it in the surrounding communities o Walnut, Covina, Azusa and LaPuente all of them are realizing they have to take forward steps, They are all realizing that if we don't have forward thinking and take these steps all of these communities are going to bypass use Councilman Snyder: I am saying -that these goals are too abstractlystatedto be even reached rewritten in a form which is understandatleetopevaery d , lhamino-te talking about God, Mother or Country here,but what I think are attainable here, . Councilman Gleckman.- Can we take the General Plan as a separate item? Councilman Snyder.- This is not for the General Plan, this is .for oar City. Mayor Krieger.- You mean as a separate Councilman Gleckman.- fine if that is the case. We are talking about things that we are working on and I am concerned as to whether the Planning Commission is passing us by our existing ordinances and our exists ni ionwhile ion has thought about the usages that are allowed in that, � zoning practices m the C®1 zone, The C®2, 0©3, the Rml m is this the type of community plans we are going to have in the next 5 or 10 years? When do we -start looking and upgrading what we presently have to give us what we would like to have? We can go out and say we want the nicest community in the world but -as long as you continually :have a 0-1 zone that whenever anyone gets a C-1..they can put a hot dog stand or a taco stand ® as far as I am concerned that is not the type of community planning that I am looking forward to and if this doesn't give us what we want in order to grant that type of zoning let's upgrade that zoning pattern so when we grant this type of zoning we know what is going into that area. These are the things I am concerned with. Not these flowing words that everybody wants a wonderful thing o just like in our Core axea, our commercial areas we should have a Bullock's and a Robinson's and all the nice things you are talking about but no where in any of this planning or 16$1discussing has anyone come and told us how we get that developer that wants 0. a foot for his land in order to bring in Bullock's or Robinson°s at $1.50 a foot m how are we going to bring -them into this so-called core area if that land is so valuable. That's what is passing us by. When do we' start taking on some of the basic fighting decisions in order to make this community go forward? I don't understand you gentlemen. We can sit here day after day, week after week and talk about all the nice things we are going to bring to our° community. If you are going to show me how I am going to bring them here then I am interested but if you are only going to talk about the things we should have ® I am not interested. 12 ADJ. C. Co 11-6-67 Page Thirteen JOINT MEETING Continued Councilman Snydero Planning Commission, May I -comment Mrs Gleckman? We just did revise all these ordinances not too long ago, which you sent up from the Councilman Gleckmano I fought them then, I thought they were too mild and I think they are City we are always talks still too mild togiveus the type of Y y talking about that we want to lire in but no one will make an ordinance strong enough. You have to strike while the iron is hot, you can sit and talk about all these things but once they have passed us by and they don°t need us anymore then what are you going to do about all these nice things? Councilman Snyder-, I am not talking about the nice. things, only using the statement of goals as a framework around your ordinances. Now if your ordinances -don° t fit into this framework to achieve, at least partially your goals, then we are both going against the policy we set out to do, Councilman Nichols: I am inclined to feel in all deference to Councilman Gleckman°s sincerity and his concern for the welfare of the community, which I don't question, but I think he is sitting here being the pot '.loudly calling the kettle black. I have served on the council about 3-1/2 years and I think I have heard implied, indirect, obtruse criticism of the Planning Commission that could first be leveled right at the City Council. If there is anything significant about it, it is the • authority of this Council to give policy direction to the -Planning Commission. I would believe that very firmly. Another thing, you have a fairly new Planning Director in the City who has taken sometime to become familiar with policies, procedures and trends. You have two virtually new Planning Commissioners and everytime we elect a new councilman we have to sit still for practically a year beforTi we.can get moving again, Councilman Gleckmano 'I take exception to that,.,. Councilman Nichols: Well I don't. I think it took about a year before yo7u,,, even get sassy. There people and we are talking really in te�m�t��eonn�ydadm�,�terd®�tmon� s these actually, and I would expect much greater things from the Planning Commis si.®n in. the :Future. There is one area I would like to comment on. I think there is too darn much tendency both on the part of the City Council and the Planning Commission to sit around waiting for the staff of this City.to tell us what to dos Now about the only major exception to this that I have seen since I have been on the Council and that was due to our Mayor, Mr, Krieger, where we moved ahead in the areas of the Blue Ribbon Committees which came as a considerable shock and some pain to the staff. But other than that, too much of the time all of us sit around waiting for the professional staff people to tell us where we are going. I think that a degree of more inspiration, of independent initiative •would be in order on the part of both of these bodies. I think it would be a valid double criticism, -That would be my only comments Councilman Gillum: direction somebody shot a hole in there? You may be right Mrs Nichols, but if my memory serves me correctly, the one time the staff did take off in a new them and said what are you doing over Councilman Nichols: The minutes would reflect my total ® 13 ADJ. C. C. 11®6-67 Page Fourteen JOINT MEETING ® Continued criticism was that the first I knew or heard of it was when it came before- the City Council in written form, and my objection and it was so stated, was not that they were moving ahead but that something was moving ahead between the:staff and the Planning Commission and the first time I ever hear about it is when acquaintances of' mine, whose homes are affected by it, ask me what's up and I have to come and ask somebody else m what ° s up? Mayor Krieger: Chairman Adams, I would.like to ask you or a member of your Commission a question m an unanswered question, but again I state it is not set down as -criticism but as a question. In what area has the Planning Commission undertaken some individual. thinking? Commissioner Adams: I think I would refer io our Capital Improvement Program. To my knowledge this Commission certainly has never participated nor has any Commission ever participated - this is contrary to State Laws which charge us with our responsibilities in the discussion, formulation and implementation of capital improvement programs. This at least sees us 5 years in the future with something firm we can see take shape today, tomorrow and the next 5 years. I think it is perhaps a deficit on the part of the council in not asking the Planning Commission to fulfill its role in developing such a program. I think again that is one phase where we should actively participate. I would hope and we are approaching the time again when we will be considering the capital improvement programs, that we would actively participate in such discussions. As far as the other programs go I think we have tried and will continue to in -put to the consultant what our thoughts are, not as . individuals but as a Commission, reflecting the studies that have been made by other groups. In those areas I think we can most effectively participate in long range planning. I certainly agree with you that all of us, not only in our activities here at the level, of Council and Commission, but in our daily activit:bs become lost perhaps in our routine daily matters. I think we appreciate the opportunity to have this pointed out to us. So that would be part of my response as to what we are thinking about and what we would be thinking about as to what we would like to see in our City today, tomorrow or 5, 109 20 years from now. There have been several comments made and I certainly don°t think it was intended that I or any of the commissioners explain our comments or votes on any matters that came before use I Trade those, speaking for myself, on the information that was available and would make the same decisions again and I would not care to go any further. (MAYOR KRIEGER CALLED A RECESS AT 8:50 P.M. JOINT MEETING RECONVENED AT 9 P.M.) Mayor Krieger: Mr. Adams you indicated in your comments that the next meeting with the con- sultants on the General Plan is the 29th, Commissioner Adams: This will be a session on the Central Business District. . Mayor Krieger: What would be the thoughts of the council of perhaps meeting at the same time with the Planning Commission and the consultants and giving another look®see. It is not intended to be interloping into the problems of the functions of the Planning Commission. Councilman Snyder: be wrong for us to officially meet preventing us from attending, But As a matter of procedure and in the interest of getting the widest freedom of thought on this matter I think it would on that same night. There is nothing as you realize the General Plan goes ® 14 - ADJ. Co C. 11®6-67' Page Fifteen JOINT METING - Continued through a hearing at the Planning Commission and then the Council and for us to interject ourselves in it at this level it seems to me would be putting an undue influence even if we did remain silent„ We should go unofficially. • Mayor Krieger-, This City Council can't go anyplace un- officially, We can show up anyplace we want as individuals but I don't know what the advantage of such a procedure would be in terms of what we want to accomplish. I thought the whole idea of this report was to make sure the consultants weren't going off in some direction that all of a sudden the Council and Planning Commission would say ® wait a minute, how do we happen to be there? • r1 U Councilman Snyder: This is what I was referring to when I spoke earlier about the relationship between the consultant, the Planning Commission and the Council. When you hire a consultant you hired a expert, he is going to take the facts and present them and it 1s up to the Planning Commission and Council to later modify them but not right then. I don't think it is a good relationship to directly tell a consultant right there that you are going off in the wrong direction, Commissioner Adams-, Mr. Mayor - Mr. Menard has prepared a brief here as to what has been accomplished and phase one is practically complete. As we go into phase two, if there are items there that you are particularly interested in we would be glad to go into them. This will give you an idea of the areas that will be reviewed and discussed. Most of these will be individual study sessions and public hearings on the entire packet. We had this prepared for your information and whatever comments you may wish to make at this time on it, Mayor Krieger: Well the Council will have to make its decision at the next regular meeting prior to that meeting of the 29th as to whether or not we will meet as a body on the 29th as an adjourned meeting, Mr. Aiassa, will you put that on our agenda on the 27th and we can discuss it that night, Councilman Snyder: I would like to know as a matter of legality if this is a hearing item whether we can officially meet? Commissioner Adams: This was billed as a work shop session of the Central. Business District Study, Councilman Snyder: My same objection would apply that I have to the Blue Ribbon Committee. I mention this because it is a parallel,. It seems to me the members on the Blue Ribbon Committee on the Freeway are participating because they have individual interests and individual axes to grind regarding the future path of the Freeway and for them to come to a conclusion or recommendation ahead of or parallel with 'the consultants and Planning Commission, is an undue influence on our planning. It seems to me the proper pure way to de this is to let the planners plan this and then let the citizens knock it down, but not while he is doing his pure planning. And that is myy objection to this. For the City Council to meet as a group even in, a study session, they are putting, perhaps at least, a subconscious influence on the planner that will restrict his movement rather than help him and lead to a more restrictive General Plan or more narrow General, Plan than we would hope to find. Mayor Krieger-, Your logic certainly escapes me. 15 ADJ. 0. C, 11-6-67 Page Sixteen JOINT MEETING - Continued Councilman Gleckmans Some of your remarks just now were away off base. The people meeting in the Huntington Beach Freeway sub- committees and General Plan committees may have and nobody kno m that including yourself, at sometime volunteered for this Committee on the basis of which you inferred, but I have had close liaison with almost • all of the people on this Committee...,. Councilman Snyder: Before you go on I did not charge anybody with, that, but by the very nature of the Committee itself,,,,... Councilman Gleckman: Fortunately I can report tb'..this body that the makeup of this Committee., now that you brought it uF, is a tremendous overwhelming expression of city-wide participation as to location where they live and the progress up to now has been one of unselfish motive in all three subcommittees. Councilman Snyder: You are inferring something I never said. Councilman Gleckman: They have taken this problem on not as to location as to where each one individually lives or any groups live, but as to the best m ode if it has to be, where it would serve the City of West Covina best, and their recommendation will be passed on to the consultant and if it should fall into line as to where the consultant has preliminarily suggested it would be one of circumstance and not one of influence. Councilman Snyders In my statement I did not infer or state that anybody had ulterior motives other than those that are common to all of us and human. There is nothing wrong with it except as to its timing, the timing should be behind the consultants report and not ahead of it. They should follow the consultants and not before. Mayor Krieger. - the General Plan Committee? Councilman Snyder: except in the fact it might have in effect is what it did. You were the Council liaison on the Committee for the General Plan, do you feel that your criticism is valid with It was not my particular idea to form this Citizen Committee,, I do feel that the Committee was premature as well, restricted itself to goals and this Mayor Krieger: I attended a meetin g at the Edgewood High School where the consultants presented their sketch plan to the Planning Commission and as I remember the consultants commended most highly on the work of this particular committee and the value of this committee and in fact it was the recommendatbn of the consultants that we have a Citizens Committee, so we followed the procedure the consultants themselves suggested, Councilman Snyder: As I said before if I had it to do over again I would not have approved or sat on this Committee. Commissioner Mayfield: I would like to go along with what Mayor Krieger said here. This was one of the were when we talked at the Planning Commissio.nv wasias thisevalue andsweefelrint actually the consultants retained for the Job recognized this value more than anything. From my own personal background I felt this was one of the 16 ADJ. Co Co 11-6-67 Page Seventeen JOINT MEETING - Continued few avenues we have to being what I call a broad base for our General Plan, I believe our General Plan and our Zoning certainly has to have a broad base of public support or it won't stand very well. And I think this is what you get from your Citizens Committe-es. • Councilman Snyder: I would agree with you but it is a matter of timing. Commissioner Mayfield: However, after this I would hope that we could have some hearings and have a large number of our citizens take an interest in this plan. If we could present it in some brief form sufficient to capture their interest and get some broad interest and questions from the citizens. As you remember at our hearing last time we.were lucky to get the attendance we had because there was a Freeway controversy. Councilman Snyder-, This is my very concern because of this B1ue.Ritb do arrives{. a esCome ueT8eSwrhngo u the public may feel their work is done and may not show ups and this is really the spot where they are supposed to make their public modifications of what to attempt to adopt. Mayor Krieger: No one that showed up at Edgewood High that night seemed to be depleted in their comments by the fact that there had been a Blue Ribbon Citizen Committees • Councilman Gillum-, Do you remember when we decided to go ahead with this new General Plan and also retain professional people, I think it was made very strong by this council that this would be an in-house project and that we would use the talent of the professionals but all the thinking came from within this City by our staff and by our citizens and I think at that time we showed in the critical path where the Citizens Blue Ribbon Committee played an impor'b=_Int part in this and not the paid professionals saying we thank this is what is best ror you and we tear it apart. Mayor Krieger: This is a Joint meeting-9 let's go on br®hugh eup. Do yous eie e here nave been areas and you mentioned Capital Improvement where the Planning Commission were circumvented or the rogatives of the Planning Commission not having been recognized? Commissioner Adams*, Where they have not participated - I think there are areas where we should have. (COUNCILMAN SNYDER LEFT AT 9*,15 P.M.) Mayor Krieger-, When did this first come to your attention with regard to the Capital Improvement area? I don't remember anything from the Planning Commission that said - "wait - we haven't even discussed it." Is there some feeling on it? Commissioner Adams; I_don°t think -it is a lack of initiative on the Planning Commission that they haven't participated, but it is something that just hasn't been done. I would hope that it would be done in the future. It certainly would be most beneficial for all -concerned. It brings out really where our efforts are going to be directed so far as expenditures of money on projects and programs discussed„during the year. 17 ADJ. C. C. 11=6m67 JOINT MEETING - Continued Page Eighteen Councilman Gleckman-, Commissioner Adams, don't you feel that the 5 year improvement plan present- ed both to the Council and the Commission by the staff is one of which at that time if there were any • particular things that the Commission felt they wanted to review or take it in review or add something to at or anytime during the year that would be more or less your guidelines as to what to discuss. I think we all get the 5 year Capital:Improvement Plan. Commissioner Jackson-, Councilman Gleckman-, minute, let's discuss this. Commissioner Jackson-, It was completed when it came out. I think it would have been excellent from the standpoint that you are taking hold of something and said - wait a It appeared pretty finalized to me when it came out. Councilman Gleckman-, Absolutely not, not as far as I was concerned. I think you are definitely the .assumption that anything that is omy en to you are taking anything under you and that°s the end of the line ® that is mronumber u by tone objection.aff as to Mayor Krieger-, Did you mean staff or council action? Councilman Gleckman-, Either way. Mayor Krieger-, When the PlanningCommission sion looked at the Five Year Improvement report you are quite right when you state what the legal irovisions of the Planning Commission is with regard to that program. This sn't always brought to the council's attention in the proper form either by the staff in terms of submission through channels. Dr. Snyder who is not with us is a champion of this taint of view with regard to o has that Commission or Board taken a look athis. .Commissioner Jackson.- Maybe I got in on it a, little late. I don't know when it came out but there to be a littlerelationship to the council, staffs ands Commission, thandiffpreviously n on the Commission. Things have been pretty much council dominated when it comes to us. We don't feel that our staff is our staff. Councilman Gillum-, Commissioner Jackson-, Councilman Gillum-, Commissioner Jackson-, •itself get into. Mayor Krieger. - reluctant to say anything. I am sorry Mr. Jackson, I don't quite understand you m m you say it is now more council dominated than before? Yes. As a group or individuals? The council as a group, I never talk individuals. Maybe I am wrong, maybe it is something the Commission has let I would be very much surprised if someone on the Commission said to me tonight - we felt this yet we were m 18 0 • ADJ. C. C. 11-6-67 JOINT MEETING m Continued Page Nineteen Commissioner Davis-, I would like to make a comment. As a new member of the Commission as I get the picture and understand the law in this regard there doesn't have to be a Planning Commission. The City Council can act as the planners in the City, Mayor Krieger.- Commissioner Davis-, Council could have this wrong, Mayor Krieger-, Commissioner Davis: I don't understand that to be the facto Alright but this is my understanding that it could have a Planning Commission but by law it could be set up that the perogative or this responsibility. I may be established by this State or responsibilities? Mayor Krieger-, legislature. No m in a general law city much of the p""rogatives of the Planning Commission are established by the Government Code. Now does the Planning Commission, once you have a Planning Commission, does it have all of the responsibilities can the Council preempt certain of those Mr. Menard is more of a specialist in this field, but as I understand it Council cannot by Ordinance albyY. gate the responsibility given to you by Mr, Menard, Planning Director: I think that is right Mr. Mayor. The State -Planning Act outlines specific responsibilities that will be vested in the Planning Commission to the point that if the Planning Commission were to make a recommendation to the City Council and the city Council wanted to reverse that decision on a General Plan, or area plan,, etd;, that it must be sent back down to the Planning Commission for re- analysis before the Council can actually turn the decision around. Commissioner Davis: Alright that definitely places the responsibility on the Planning Commission to perform those responsibilities set out by law. We can't sit by at all otherwise somebody better kick us off. Then I have one more question. The staff is actually working under the direction of the City Manager and the City Manager is actually working under the direction of the Council. The Planning Commission has no supervisory responsibilities or powers to the staff as I can see without going through the Council through the City Manager to order the staff to do something. I know we do but I am trying to get the chain of commando Mayor Krieger: The Planning Director, of course, is the Secretary of the Planning Commission. Commissioner Davis: Then as Secretary he carries the ball but does the City Council give the Commission the power to direct the staff? Councilman Nichols: If I may ® I think if you are asking do you have the same authority that the City Council has in terms of giving direction to staff, the answer would be "no." However, you are operating as an arm of the council and you request cooperation and assistance from the staff and I think you would expect to receive that or you would inform your council that you are not receiving that and it would then be the council°s function to discuss with the City Manager and find out why. Your role is a staff relationship with staff but 19 ADJ. Co Co 11-6-67 Page Twenty • n U JOINT MEETING - Continued it is a functional and cooperative one. I b-heve 1-hat is correct Councilman Gleckman: I would say your cooperation comes through the Planning Director who is the Secretary and not through the staff of the Planning Department which is under the Secretary to your Commission. You request of him and then he would take it from there, Commissioner Davis: I want to point out that there is no indication that this hasn't been done I am just discussing the responsibilities and powers of your Planning Commission, Mayor Krieger: The Planning Director, of course, is a staff man, The City Council doesn't direct the Planning Director to do anything, we direct the City Manager to do it. Commissioner Mayfield: It would seem to me we have sort of a double supervision here, where the administrative side is providing the staff throe h the City M ager nd the Council, and we in the Pl.a4ni Commission as a po cy ma ing body give gu�.dance and determinaffonto the technical phases of the planning work, The direction in the planning work itself and the utilizing of the services of the staff through our secretary, Mayor Krieger: Was the point that there is some feeling by the Commission that you haven't had the assistance you needed to function? Commissioner Mayfield: I feel as far as all the reports we needed with regard to use permits and zone changes, etc., that we have had good technical assistance. I think though there are probably occasions when it is Just ma be a thing that our Planning -Director has felt he is get ing a lot of his guidelines from the Council and in some ways this is probably alright. Councilman Gleckman: I don't want to play on words but I do want to relate to you the Planning Commission is not a policy making body, it may be a policy recommending body but the Council is the policy making body. You are an advisory group to the policy making body, Mayor Krieger: I think perhaps this is the timely moment to direct the Planning Director to enlighten us with some comments since he has taken the position, in regard to his staff reporting system. A number of us have noted the changes and the Commission has individually commented. • Mr. Menard, Planning Director: There have been some definite changes made from the point of view of the staff reports and what is contained in the body of those staff reports. I, as a planner and my experience in planning does not particularly look at planning as an art, I think we are 15 ® 20 years beyond. We have enough experts now in cities as to what not to do and what to do. Planning is becoming more and more of a science. It used to be that planning was opinion and once again the experience we have had accrued looking back in retrospect perhaps many of the opinions were not so good, so therefore I am trying to direct ® 20 ADJ. Co Co 11®6-67 Page Twenty-one JOINT MEETING m Continued the staff to analyze a particular action that would go before the Planning Commission or the City Council or perhaps both in a staff report basis to look at it in the acceptd planning criteria and perhaps based far more on what has been suocessful not only from the point of view of aesthetics but economically :successful with the idea that we will not have in the City of West Covina eventual blight. I didn't go to the Planning Commission or City Council for this kind of direction. This is the way I have always done my staff reports in the two cities I worked before working in West Covina. I very definitely feel planning should be substantiated on fact and not fantasy and the less opinions that one might have the more valid an action of either pri or con to something would be, not to completely do away with intuitive thinking- ' In particular in the cases on -cne intense land use zones which e ���,�L that are usuall the subn�gect matter that are very critical be re the Planning Commission and City Council. It is very simple to recommend a single family tract development, it doesn't need a great deal of thinking because it can be placed on almost any kind of land and generally speaking int-1"-e population explosion that we have in Southern California it will be successful economically. The intense land use zones I have been trying to present very definite towards a factual kind of staff report that builds up logically to an ultimate conclusion. This is an objective viewpoint of planning and hopefully an objective staff analysis, free of emotions, free perhaps in some cases of the history that has occurred in West Covina,. and hopefully looking forward 10-15-20 years as to what is proper and logical. Mr. Aiassa, City Manager: This City is unique. When I first came here your Planning Director was making • recommendations anytime he wanted to with no regards to the entire functions of the City or. the City Manager's office. Since then we have integrated the Public Works Department to the Public Works Division and the Planning Department is now exposed to all of the Public Works aspects. Before, each one of the Departments made a separate report to the Planning Commission, it was one of the most confused pieces of literature ever transmitted to a Planning Commission. Now Mr. Menard coordinates all of this information and the Planning.Commission receives a consolidated report. Mr. Fast and the City Manager do not tell Mr. Menard how to function, he is somewhat in a free Lance position and I think we are rather fortunate to have Mr. Menard, We also have a lot of cases that neither the Planning Commission nor the City Council ever hear about, they are handled by Mr. Menard and his staff. Now this is what you call silent service. we are discussing tonight is thattthe ttwoe grousecrps of any of these things g p get together and understand what is being done. And one thing Mr. Menard did not mention is that planning is a changing science and especially in Planning there is a trial and error phase. Mayor Krieger: Has the Commission felt a certain lack of interest by the council in its matters or direction with regard to policy? This has been mentioned.... Commissioner Adams: We can best answer that by each individual. I have not felt that. So far as staff had nse to ask for information we certainly®receivednever back thehave information aweon wanted. So I have no complaints and no reservations so far as the council's attitude or the staff's attitude insofar as being cooperative and interested in what we are doing. I think the gentlemen can answer individually on this if they care to. 21 ADJ. C. C. 11-6-67 Page twenty-two JOINT MEETING m Continued Commissioner Mayfield: As I said earlier I think that we have good reports from the Planning staff to work with on these individual con- siderations that we have. I feel that maybe as our new Planning • Director comes into the City and attacks the overall job he runs into deficiencies in our ordinances and in our procedures that he feels we should remedy. There have been occasions when I found myself in disagreement with what I consider to be a single element in a much larger area and I have always asked to look at the whole rather than a single element for a single particular item. Other than that I don't find too much difference with the recommendations that we receive. There are some problems right now because we are expecting analysis as a result of the General Plan study, we are also now thinking about a more thorough traffic study to prove out some of the elements of the General Plan as far as transportation and some of these things I, myself, feel I would rather not prejudice the outcome of the General Plan when it is so close to being completed. Mayor Krieger: Is there any reluctance by the Planning Commission as it is presently constituted to strike out on its own in areas that may not have been directed by the City Council? Commissioner Adams: Since I have been on the Commission I don't find that, I think it is ust a We do have a number of projects ha naveh en' firs things gir t. p j � � �6'een mound first a Long time • and others are new and we are trying to take some semblance of priority and take them in their importance. I think again we have enough of a backlog that we are hopefully resolving and clearing up, Commissioner Mayfield: I think this recent action to increase the staff in our Planning Department will be helpful. I think some of these studies could probably develop a lot faster now. Mayor Krieger: With regard to hearings m do you feel th ap lica istie rres nti their en re �ase o e Pyann�ing mmission or saving their ammunition for the council? Commissioner Jackson: I think there are times when they add something to it when it appears before Council,, The one we had last week - actually neither one knew enough about the case to make a presentation. No, I don't think they are really holding back with information until fit rgaches the Council. My remarks started this off sayin that we act that°theeCity°Counci p�iavemteenitusfrandthe Council, I �)aijik the y going ahead on t eir own projects that there hasn't been a flow of information back and forth on these projects. I wanted this meeting and I think we are going to need some indication by the Council of what they see in the future for the City. Maybe before we leave tonight we will get a little broader idea of what the Council sees for the future. There has been some difference in relationship between the Council and the Commission. Councilman Nichols: Mro Mayor, I would react to something he • just said. I believe, Mr. Jackson, just said that perhaps before we leave tonight we might get some better idea of what the Council is thinking about the future development of the City, This is the very & t2t'�_�ie5i5 of my conception of your role as a Planning Commission. Naturally I do have some thoughts of what we might be or need in the future, but I have delegated toyou the job of telling me of what you conceive for the future of the City of West Covina and then let me shoot down what you say. Do you follow what I am saying? I want you to be my eyes, my ears and my thought factory in this broad area of planning then if I can challenge you in some area and shoot holes in. what you say m fine, 22 ADJ. C. C. 11®6-67 Page Twenty-three JOINT MEETING - Continued if I can't then I should accept what you suggest in these areas. This does a job for me that I don't feel I have the time to do. So any general statements I might give you would be throw type of statements not borne of the prevalency of great thought and detailed investigations. • Commissioner Davis: Mr, Mayor, I have one comment. I certainl. feel we hhage thh responsibility to brin t Pings to you. On the other hand there are certain areas on which you have a greater contact ppolitical Participation, organizations outside and regional planning areas, which we might not have such contacts and I am curious for one thing just what West Covina's role has been, and is, and will be, in its association with other governments in this area? On some of this we get a little feedback from the council in this regard but not very much. Maybe there isn't much. We see a little bit of it going on in the papers but this might be an area of where the Council could assist the Commission. Or perhaps the Commission should take it on to ask - this may be the approach. I see our Sketch Plan has date of 1990`but are we going to be West Covina by 1990 or is this whole valley going to be under one government? What has been the thinking of this type of organization? Right now we are really a very little City - but what is it going to be in 15 m 20 years and what kind of thinking is there in this regard? I don't know that our Planning consultants are doing anything in this regard, I would like you gentlemen to comment. Commissioner Mayfield: One thing with regard to our consultants, when we were developing emphasizing our regional relationship nandcwte inwe sistednthey go . ond the boundaries of the City. This was part of the study, they ogcconsider our future relationship with the rest of the Valley, Councilman Gillum. Mr, Davis - I think it is our responsibility and I think we have been tas Cit of W st C Drina i in thei si io ng it dnsv�� ndaaszi hang tec een 1` r past ye r or wo, o set 4he trend an s andar s for ais al�eyo might say we started out with Data Processing and all of s sudden the rest of the Cities decided to start it and we are that far ahead of them, The Blue Ribbon Committees - they are coking to us wanting to know how we set them up. Things of this type, this City has taken the initial step in the East San Gabriel Valley and I think this is our res onsib lit o We av t est 1 sh ®urselves as the en er of the Val�ey an se the s andarAso at y®u are saying may �e y 1990 we ma be one large metropolitan area in the Valley. I think this City is the one to set the pattern as we have done in many of the areas and other cities are waking up to the fact than we are progressives I think we have made these steps in that direction. I think the Planning Commission has instituted some of them and. the Council has, I think we have to because of our size and we have to set the standards for the Valley in the future. Tf we set standards such as the. Planning Commission has along with the Planning Director or certain restrictions therefore we are going zo have that much better quality and if the other cities want to compete they will have to follow. We have started in this direction and that will make the difference by 1990. I.don't even venture to say what would be here in 1,990. • Mayor Krieger. To shift the emphasis a little hit.. There .a.ren't many eve_~its that justify exp, League convention for the PlanningeCommissionsas�lwellthe as the Council. We feel this does fall in your province to listen to these people. There were many people there that addressed themselves to this very question that you asked. It can very well get its initial impetus at the Planning Commission. You have been exposed to the same things we You get the same reports many times that we do. The City of West Covina has taken the leadership in the East San Gabriel Valley Planning Committee even though there 3reo13 communities including the ADJ. C. 0. 11-6-67 Page Twenty-four JOINT MEETING - Continued City of Pomona. -We feel more of a leadership to that organization than any other City in the Valley. Commissioner Jackson-. I may not have understood Mr. Davis, but I thought he was alluding to the over government;j such as LAFCO or. SGA G . (A short discussion followed on both these groups.) Mayor Krieger-, This is something the Planning Commission could be of valuable assistance to the Council on, because we are always looking for information to bolster one posithn or the other in hopes of convincing somebody or something. Councilman Gleckman-. Does the Planning Commission get the minutes of the Council meetings? (Answer-. Yes.) Many of the things you are asking about we try to convey in those minutes. We do get to thinking as five individuals on the Council as to -how we would like to see this City project itself and I think some of the things may come under the auspices of the Chamber of Commerce but also fall again under City Council and the Planning Commission for some type of direction. It seems very strange to me that we talk about our location -and our impetus on this Valley as to where we are going and how we would like to be the leader and at the same time I don't think concentrate enough on the things we need to bring to this community to become what we would like to become. For us to become what we would like to become, . for exampled I do think it is our Y rogative to talk about these'things. We don't have a place in the City of West Covina where you can have any type of an affair like the installation dinner of the Chamber of Commerce or a community dance or anything else that they would seat enough people to bring ourselves into not going elsewhere. Now how can we be a headquarters city when we don't have a headquarters to go to let alone invite other people from other communities to come in and use our facilities to know that this is the place where we.have everything We have many places to eat but very few places to dine. A place of entertainment such as the Carousel in my estimation there is something lacking from both the Carousel and the City as a community to take it on as a place that we should shine as a point of interest in the community. I think there are many areas that we aay we don't want to tread because it is private enterprise, well -all I can say -is the majority of income to this community comps from private enterprise and we should try to encourage it and try to-.nvite it in our community and that is what I was getting back to wren I talked about the land developers asking ri(li_cii.lous prices on their land so we can't bring these things here. In :.someway we should act as a catalyst and br, these things aboLkt. We have been talking for 9 years about the 0 Center,- its plight and blight and what it is going to be and we try different facets but I don't think we have carried them on far enough. I think it is a matter of opinion as to whether it is our position to take the leadership in getting these things done. I feel it is. I feel if I have the majority of the council sometime in my corner, so to s eak tp sa to the that we should the catalyst and we shoulg take the Impetus 'in order to ge a�l these things done. I do hope to get these things accomplished so this City . can become that type of City and not the type that is split off with people thinking it should only be a residential - a bedroom community, a commercial community, there is no room for industry. I don't think all these things fit into what we think is a headquarters city unless they are al ll put to ether and we hpve tried to -out all th e things together. We have Tied to protec t, each entity on. its own ��ne and you can't get a common ground of thinking unless we take it as a whole. I hope that this General Plan that we are talking about, that you gentlemeii I are charged with the responsibility of taking these things into consideration, and if not during the General Plan bring them up when you have a 9:30 meeting. I don't say purposely you should stay an extra hour if our meeting ends at 9-,30 but I think these ale some of the things that you cool ki gx°o d a d that we may jus by your discussing it and we ga® ng n e m autes 40 ADJ. C. C. 11--6-67 JOINT MEETING - Continued Page Twenty-f ive may be able to grasp ahold of it and do something with it. This is what I hope to see this Commission do. Commissioner Adams.- I want to express our thanks for the opportunity for such a meeting as this. We hope that it will occur more frequently. Mayor Krieger: It is strictly selfish on the part of Council, because we rely on the Planning Commission - the more work you do, the less we have to do. The Council has commented a number of times individually as well as collectively on the quality of the Planning Commission we have and I think time after time it has been demonstrated. I don't think such a meeting would have been requested by certain individuals if we didn't feel that we were on a common wave length, so to speak, to sit down and discuss these things. Councilman Gleckman: I c u� w'th just wha ou sffl - if we n t feel we had - qua it we wouldn't be sitting down at a meeting and discussing this. I only leave you with one other thought, that you may disagree with me but I think when we start talking about 1990 we are kidding ourselves. If we talk 1980 I would be happy to see that, but if you are going to project this General Plan with the idea that this is going to come along in 1990 I can assure you that the Councils that follow us and the Commissions that follow you within the next 6 to 10 years will be talking about upgrading the so-called General Plan for 1990. So let's not kid ourselves. Commissioner Davis: solid picture of what they are I might mention that I have been this by all four of the other Commissioners. I have been given trying to do. told E••ol Commissioner Jackson: I disagree with you - I think you are wrong in not looking that far ahead. It is pretty gory out there but you get some idea of where to go pointing towards something, You are most interested, of course, in what happens in the next 12 months. Councilman Gleckman: I am saying what you are pointing toin 1990 I can assure you will come about point. in the next 6 or 7 years. That's my -2g- ADJ. C.. C. 11-6-67 FRANCISQUITO - AZUSA AVENUE Page Twenty -Six 'Mr. Menard, Planning Director. I think you received copies of my memo report to you regarding the proposed zoning on _Francisquito - Azusa Avenue by the • County before the Regional Planning Commission on November 14th. Mayor Krieger: Your request is to place it on tonight's agenda, Mr. Menard? (Answer: Yes) Any objections of placing this matter on tonight's agenda? (There were no objections by council.) Mayor Krieger: We have a report dated.November 3, 1967, from the Planning Director to the City Manager and City Council and there is a letter from the Francisquito-Azusa neighbors and a ccpy of the notice of public hearing before the Regional Planning Commission on the 14th cf November. The recommenda- tion is that the council submit to the Regional Planning Commission opposition to the proposed rezoning of A-1 to C-2 on the southwest corner of-Francisquito and .Azusa and that City staff be authorized to attend the hearing to present such opposition. Is there discussion on this? Councilman Nichols: In the second paragraph it states that there are 127 acres of land zoned for commercial use of which acres are developed. • How far southerly does your survey go to incorporate the other acres ? Mr. Menard,. Planning Director: 1-1/2 mile radius around the site. Councilman Nichols: 1-1/2 miles is the maximum difference to the south, west, or east..... . Mr. .Menard,,Planning Director: Right. If we dropped an arc to the site southerly of Francisquito Avenue we would come up with 127 acres. Councilman Nichols: Which direction is the bulk of that land? Mr. Menard, Planning Director: 70 acres at Azusa and Amar, 45 acres outside of the City within the San Jose Ranch and another 60 acres around the Home Savings & Loan property and then some small sites. Councilman Nichols: On the north where does the 1-1/2 miles take you? Mr. Menard, Planning Director: There is no commercial on the north, but 1-1/2 miles would take you almost to the Freeway. There is commercial on Azusa and the Freeway. • Mayor Krieger: Historically the communication from the Regional Planning Commission have been to the Planning Commission - why is this directed to the City Council and not the Planning Commission? 26 - ADJ.. C. C. 11-6-67 Page Twenty-seven C • n FRANCISQUITO - AZUSA - Continued Mr. Menard, _ Planning Director: It has always been my understanding, perhaps I am wrong, but those things that come from the Regional Planning Commission are directed to the City Manager or the Council. Mayor Krieger: What bothers me about this, frankly, is the timing. We have before the Council on Monday night a zone change application on a piece of property that is within this arc area. You take an arc, as Mr.. Nichols pointed out, a mile and extend it another 1/2 mile and this falls within the area and I am wondering whether the Council should take a position on this particular matter until it takes a position on the property that it comes within the jurisdiction of. Councilman Gillum- Would it be possible that this one item - - although..I know there is a communication coming from the School District pertaining also to this one. .I am wondering if this is to be heard on the 14th and our meeting is on the 13th would it be possible to make a decision on this on the 13th and direct staff to convey this to the people on the 14th? Mayor Krieger: It certainly is physically possible inasmuch as our meeting is the night before the Regional Planning Commission, it is just a question if the Council wants to do it. .I think it is unfortunate that the Planning Commission did not have sufficient opportunity to pass on this, to take a position with the Regional Planning Commission, .which is the -procedure we have followed in the past. Mr..Aiassa, City Manager: I think the case involved here that the prior council has heard this case before. I think this is the third time it has come up. The timing is rough. Motion by Councilman -Gillum, seconded by Councilman Gleckman, and carried, that this be held over for consideration by Council on the November 13th agenda. Mayor Krieger: I would suggest that it be held over and placed on the agenda after the hearing item. Councilman Gillum: One other thing. Mr. Mayor, is it possible that this material might be consumed by the Planning Commission on this particular hearing, and also if at all possible we do away with the invocation and the flag. salute Monday night? Councilman Nichols: I would concur also. We have a hearing coming up that is going to be very long and if staff could remove any items that could be carried over, I know I would appreciate it. - 27. - .ADJ. C.. C. 11-6-67 Page Twenty-eight JEWISH WAR VETERANS' AUXILIARY BONDS Mayor Krieger: We have a request from the Jewish War Veterans' Auxiliary requesting permission to sell Poppies • in the City of West Covina on November loth and llth. This request has been granted previously and if there are no objections, their request will be granted. There were no objections by Council. . So ordered. BUSINESS LICENSE ORDINANCE Motion by Councilman. Gillum, seconded by Councilman Gleckman, and carried, that a Public Hearing be set on November 20th at 8 P.M. , on the new Business License Ordinance. .. SISTER.CITY COMMISSION Mayor Krieger: We have a letter from Mrs. Gordon and indicating their terms are expiring as Commissioners to the West Covina Sister City Commission, and that they .wish to relinquish their Commission because they have commitments that require their full time. We will have to consider new appointments to the ' Sister City • Commission. Motion by Councilman, Nichols, seconded by. Councilman.Gleckman, and carried, that the Council receive and file the letter. Councilman Nichols: Mayor Krieger, have you had any verbal communication on this ? Mayor Krieger: I have not discussed this with anyone as yet. We went through this procedure about a year ago. Councilman Nichols: About two or three weeks ago Mr.. Rogers contacted me in this respect and I suggested that he orally communicate with you. Mayor Krieger: There has been no oral communication. We will have to interview prospective candidates for ti hb..se. app;o ntmeints . Will the staff please indicate to the council those communications that indicated they desired to be considered for this Commission and whether they are still interested. We can add this to our agenda next Monday night. 0 RAPID TRANSIT MEETING Mayor Krieger: There is a meeting tomorrow night on Rapid Transit. Informational meeting. (Council indicated unable to attend.) Mr..Aiassa will you please arrange to have a staff representative at this meeting. (Agreed) ADJ., C. C. 11-6-67 Page Twenty -Nine There being no further business at this time motion was made by Councilman Gillum, seconded by Councilman Gleckman and carried, that at 10: 18 p.m. , meeting adjourn to November 13, 1967, at 7:30 p.m. ATTEST • City Clerk APPROVED 7 % 9 v17 Mayor - 29 -