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07-05-1966 - Regular Meeting - Minutes• MINUTES OF THE ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL Ir CITY OF WEST COVINA, , CALIFORNIA JULY 5, 1966. The adjourned regular meeting of the City Council was called to order by -Mayor Krieger at 7: 40 p.m. , in the West Covina City Hall. Councilman Gillum led the Pledge of Allegiance. ROLL CALL Present: Mayor Krieger Councilmen Gillum, Nichols, Snyder and Gleckman. Others Present: George Aiassa, City Manager Robert Flotten , City Clerk & Administrative Assistant Gerald Weeks, Administrative Assistant Jack Stanley, Administrative Intern Hal Joseph, Planning Director Personnel Board H. R. Fast, Public Service Director Samuel Sornborger Captain Hill, (Fire Dept.) Robert Young Jerry McGrath (Fire Dept.) Sergeant Gomez (Police Dept.) Human Relations Comm&bion ANNUAL SALARY ADJUSTMENTS Fred a der J Elainee Mansell ll • JOINT MEETING WITH PERSONNEL BOARD John Overholt Mayor Krieger: The first item on the Agenda is the Annual Salary Adjustment. Mr. Sornborger, I gather you are acting chairman of the Personnel Board this evening? (Mr. Sornborger explained that.Mr. Zoelle had to leave, and that he (Mr. Sornborger) was elected Chairman of the Board for the coming year.) Mayor Krieger: We have received a report, gentlemen, from the Personnel Board in our weekend mail and I trust you have all had a chance to re- view it. It refers to previous enclosures. Is there any supple- mental material that your Board would like to present to us? Mr.- Sornborger: Mr. Mayor, we have met on at least three occasions regarding this particular study and after considerable thought and many explanations on. classifications given by Mr. Gold, the Board has made a recommendation concerning Mr. Gold's study. I would like Nancy to read the recommendation. MOTION "I will entertain a motion that the Gold Study total recommenda- tion be accepted as presented, with the exception that the Police Sergeants and Fire Captains are not given the additional • one-half step increase. The step placement would be 26a for Police Sergeant and 28a for the Fire Captain. ' So moved by Mr. Zoelle. Seconded by Mr., Sanborn. All in favor: Messrs. Sornborger, Zoelle, Sanborn. ABSTAIN: Messrs. Young and Faunce. ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 ANNUAL SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Page Two Mayor Krieger: I requested of Mr. Weeks that the council be given this information prior to the meeting this evening so we would have time to look at some of these figures. The figures that were given to us over the weekend are headed "Tentative Personnel Recommendations". Was the action of the Personnel Board to firm up their recommendation? Mr. Sornborger: Yes sir. Mayor Krieger: So what we have had over the weekend as Tenta- tive Personnel Board recommendations now become the actual recommendations of the Personnel Board with two abstentions of the Personnel Board. Were the abstentions based u0on their recent appointments to the Personnel Board and not to be construed as exceptions to the recommendation of the Personnel Board? Mr. Young and Mr. Faunce replied: Absolutely no. Mayor Krieger: The chair recognizes Mr. Gold. You have had the opportunity, I assume, to look at the Personnel Board recommendations and become familiar with them? (Mr. Gold replied - yes) Is there any comment you wish to make to the Council either on your first proposal, the supplemental proposal, or the recommendation of the P ersonnel Board? Mr. Gold: I think what our reports say in writing is actually adequate. However, perhaps I should make one or two points. The initial report was made and following that a series of appointments were held with Department Heads or employees who requested them. Perhaps, as a matter of procedure, we might allow a little more time for that sort of thing in the future, but as a result of that a small number of classification problems were pointed out and covered in our second report and two other classifications regarding Fire Captain, and Police Sergeant were pointed out, which are not classification problems and which the Personnel Board has not concurred with in our recommendation, were made because of a review of the City's rather massive annexations. .It is indicated that some of these annexations may be going through and some of these services may be taken over by the Fire and Police Depart- ments before the end of the.. next fiscal year. That is an assumption, which may or may not be the case. :If that is the case, these people will have extended duties and the possible new grouping of criteria cities which will come into place will un- doubtedly place them in the positions which we are recommending in our second report. Secondly, the Police and Fire Departments are still operating with below the average number of personnel of the comparable cities, thus indicating the quality difference factor which has been applied should continue to be applied. This is a judgment, it is not a matter of arithmetic. In other words, the benchmark information does not support the second recommendation. The thing that does support it is the quality difference factor, based on the judgment that your annexed areas maybe substantial • and as a matter of policy your City may have to assign these people into those areas before the next salary survey. The Personnel Board thoroughly considered this matter and they did not concur with our second recommendation, and I think they have explored every aspect of it thoroughly and their judgment is certainly one we would respect and we would naturally concur, if you did, with them. - 2 - ADJ. C. C. - 7/5/66 Page Three ANNUAL SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Mayor Krieger: Thank you, Mr. Gold. .I will now allow the Personnel Board to make comments. ..Do you,Mr.-'Sornborger, or any members, care to make any further comments? Mr. Sornborger: We know Mr. Gold spent quite a lot of time interviewing people throughout the City, department heads and employees. There were several protests regarding classifications, which the individuals did not agree with. Mr. Gold spent time with them. The second part of his study was a consideration of the protests, more or less. .And, this is where the quality differential factor that we picked out, came to life, regard- ing the Police Sergeants and .Fire Captains. It was the feeling of the Board that the City Council has expressed on occasion - a desire to keep the City in the top three of the comparable cities. .And, there was further thinking of the Board that if we advanced them for a quality differential factor only another one-half step, which amounts to 2 1/2% this would place the positions in Number 1 and Number 2 relation to the cities surveyed. I believe, Fire Captains were No. 1 and Sergeants No. 2, otherwise they fall into 2nd and 3rd. Because it was based ona quality differential factor, assuming the annexations will be through next year, we felt that placing in �No. 1 and No. 2 order for quality reasons only, was not sufficient to raise them another - .2 1/2%. Aside from these two positions - the Board felt they could go along with Mr. Gold's complete survey as presented with the exception of this one factor, which we felt was based almost in its entirety on an intangible, which was the quality differential factor. • Mayor Krieger: Mr. -Sanborn do you have anything you wish to add to the comments of the Chairman? Mr., Sanborn: There are several employees in the various departments that are affected .by a hold -open position by Mr. Gold. A situation not made final at this time. For instance the Planning Depart- ment, Recreation & Park: Department, Street- Department, and a few other classifica- tions, and I am concerned about the final solutions to.that if this were approved. We feel that in those cases they should be solved as soon as possible by Mr. Gold and the staff. Also we understand there are certain Departments that perhaps have some questions to ask or have not come before us now because they have waited until the recommendation becomes final, so we anticipate hearing them prior to the end of the month when the council would have to adopt the recommendations. Mayor Krieger: Do I understand from Mr. Sanborn's comments that the Personnel Board has some additional procedural steps to conclude before the recommendation is final? Mr. Sornborger: No sir, our recommendation stands as presented. However, Mr. Weeks informs us that the Fire Captains and the Police Sergeants are asking for consideration and a hearing regarding this particu- lar action we have taken. • Mayor Krieger: Any other comments ? Mr. Faunce or Mr. Young, recognizing your position on the matter? Mr. Young: I have no comments, except to say I believe there is some consideration by -Mr. Gold that there should be some upgrading that should be taken into consideration in the future. - 3 - ADJ. . C. C. 7/5/66 A14NUAL SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Page Four Mayor Krieger: You are specifically directing your comments to Fire Captains and Police Sergeants? 0 Mr. Young: Yes sir. Mr. Faunce: Just on reading the minutes I have been given over the weekend, I feel. that any steps that should be taken should be done at the time the annexation goes into effect. There also was some mention in here of upgrading the educational standards and re- quirements for the Police and Fire positions under discussion, which I think -would lend more weight to the value factor. Mr. Sornborger: Mr. Mayor, if I may? The quality differential factor, particu- larly in .Police and Fire, has been a matter that has come before us in previous years and the feeling is this is based on fewer personnel within these Departments as compared with the other surveyed cities and there has been some feeling within the Board that only so much work can be done in an 8 hour day. So this is where the quality differential factor meets some opposition as far as the thinking of the Board is concerned. Mayor Krieger: Before throwing this open for the Council's discussion or questions, I think it might be appropriate, perhaps unusual but I still think appropriate, to invite any representatives from the West Covina Employees' Association that might be here this • evening and wish to address the Council. on this particular matter, although it is not a public matter. We arefamiliar with the correspondence by Mr. Russell, as Presi- dent of the W. C. C. E.A. , to the -City Manager and the Personnel Board and circulat- ed to the Council. The invitation is extended to you if you wish to address the Council. If so, please come to the microphone and give your name. Sergeant Gomez: Police Dept. I would like to say on behalf of the Sergeants ..... City Manager Aiassa: Are you representing the Employees' Association,. or just an employee? Sergeant Gomez: No, just the Sergeant's position. .I would just like to say on behalf of the sergeants that we are not prepared to make any presentation and that we were not aware of the Personnel Board's feeling until this evening at this meeting. We just found out while present here and we would like an opportunity to make our presentation. Mayor Krieger: You are not empowered to speak in behalf of the Sergeants to the matter at issue? Sergeant Gomez: We are not prepared and were not aware of their proposed • recommendation. We were aware of the meeting. tonight and out of the group I was the _one able to be present on behalf of the group. Mayor Krieger: Fine. Thank you' Sergeant Gomez. Anyone else present from the Employees' Association that wishes to speak? - 4 - ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 ANNUAL SALARY. ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Page Five Captain Hill: Fire- Dept. I represent the Fire Captains. The one thing we would like to present is this, we would like to meet again with the Personnel Board and present some,views that we feel have not been pre- sented. Mr.._ Gold covered very well the points he did make, but we feel there are some missing. It would take sometime.to present and our request is for a hearing of all of the .points before a decision is made .final . Mayor Krieger: Thanks Captain Hill... Anyone else .present from the Employees' Association? Capt. J. McGrath: Fire Dept. I am one of the Captains involved with the recommendation to- night. . I would just like.to say that ,quite possibly at the time the meeting was held for this purpose, if there was any dis- sension or disagreement with.Mr. Gold's recommendation they were not discussed at that time and if they were discussed at another meeting when we were not able to be present - I think in some of the indications given tonight we have a wrong impression. .I think the impression is given that Mr. Gold was elevating our position. Mr. Gold wasn't elevating our position, but just merely maintaining. The 5% raise he recommended in the second report was just to maintain the level we were at before there was any consideration given to any possible annexations and some of the think- ing we would have liked to have gotten to the Personnel Board included the fact that the Personnel Board back in 1963 made the 5 step differential between Fireman and . Fire Captain and the recommendation made now would drop the differential between Fireman and Fire Captains to 4 1/2%. ,And, we are kind of beside ourselves to understand why this was necessary at this time. .Most of our men are quite satisfied with the recommendations made. . Our Firemen are $14, 00 difference than.the County, but we find the Fire Captains are now $120.00 difference per month. The step differential is 7 step differential in other agencies and the step differential being presented tonight is 4 1/2` steps and this would be the reason for the protest. Possibly with the new members on the Board there isn't a full understanding of where the 5 step proposal came originally. Mayor Krieger: Thank you. ,Anyone else present tonight from the Employees' Association? Gentlemen, we have heard from Mr. Gold and the Personnel Board, both in written and oral form and the indi- viduals here tonight representing the various branches of the Employees' Association. `Mr.- Sornborger: i Mr. Mayor, we scheduled an open meeting for discussion of the Gold:_Study and because of Mr. Gold not being able to attend we then rescheduled it for the following week. It was held at the School_ District office and it was posted. We had representatives from the. Employees' Association, the Police and -Fire and. Mr. Gold discussed his points. The floor was given an opportunity to speak and present their issues. We then _scheduled a meeting following that with ..Mr. Gold to discuss • thoroughly the points he had .made at the previous meeting plus any further informa- tion he had. The recommendation from this meeting had to be based on the informa- tion we had at hand. We found in the past that following recommendations it is necessary to hold protest :hearings which the Personnel Board will set a date for immediately following our meeting with the City Council. _ At that time we will listen with open ear to any comments by the employees that they may have and if there is any change in our present recommendation the Council will receive it in.time to act before your July 25th meeting. - 5 - ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 ANNUAL SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Page Six Mayor Krieger: As I understand from the .City Attorney, procedurally speaking only, the Council must adopt its resolution this month to be effective as of. July 1. If we go beyond the last day of this month we lose the power of retro-activity as far as the resolu- tion is concerned. One additional question that I would like to pose, general in nature, have these recommendations by the Personnel Board been priced out yet by our staff? What is the figure? City Manager Aiassa: I don't have the dollarwis.e, because of the two Positions involved. . Mr. Weeks, do you have the figures ? Mr. Weeks: I think it would be very close to $100, 000. The percentage increase as recommended by the Personnel Board would be just under 5%. We have a payroll figure of $105, 000. Mayor Krieger: I assume when you say a little below 5% you are taking the average percentage across the board and not using a percentage across the board . What I am saying is, it is not a recommendation for a percentage increase across the board? (Mr. Weeks replied "No sir") So what you are giving us apparently is an average percentage and then applying that against the total payroll. . Mr. Weeks: 5% of the payroll or approximately $100, 000. Mayor Krieger: To refresh the council's memory on the budget consideration - Mr. Aiassa, the figure was? City Manager Aiassa: We are planning to run the digits out tomorrow after the Council and Personnel Board have their sessions. Mayor Krieger: I keep getting the feeling we came in at the dress rehearsal. . Let's open it up and see where we are in the matter. Councilman. Snyder: I keep hearing the word potential annexations. May I hear again what effect potential annexa- tions had on the decision of the Personnel Board? Mr. Sornborger: Dr. Snyder, and Mr. Gold please reinforce if I am incorrect - if we add certain areas to the City, this of course, increases the responsibility area, particularly on a supervisorial level. This will mean that we would in all probability have to change the surveyed cities so the population would correspond approximately with the City of West Covina, which would mean on a supervisorial level primarily this would affect the Fire Captains, Police Captains, Police Lieutenants and Sergeants, to the extent that their responsibility increases with the number of personnel they will be supervising which would mean further compensation. Councilman Snyder: May I ask, is this final salary for the super- visorial personnel based in any part on the possible annexations? - 6 - ADJ. C. . C. 7/5/66 ANNUAL .SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Page -Seven Mr. Sornborger: No sir. We have not based it to any degree on any assumption • on that basis. Councilman:- Snyder: Secondly, may I have again what was the criteria for the bigger increase for the Public Safety employees almost in total? Mr. Gold: Perhaps, that falls to me to make the answer. As you are aware, we have 10 cities which we established and used for the last two years. The same- 10 cities prevailed again this year. . For those classes in the City which we can obtain benchmark data which includes about 50 or so of the total classes we can get 5 or more valid comparisons from among the 10 cities and those then become benchmarks. The reason the Fire and Police salaries may be increasing on a greater rate than other salaries in the City is merely reflecting the economic conditions, the supply and demand in the criteria cities. This is not a judgment on our part, it is basically reflected in the matter collected from the criteria cities. All of your 10 cities have Police and Fire• Departments so they all have .these classes of Police Sergeants, Fire Captains, etc. So :from all 10 cities we get very valid comparisons so we are able to make valid comparisons, and it is just as clear this year as in previous years that Public Safety employees are moving ahead at a more rapid rate than other classes. This isn't true of all classes. Engineering is still moving ahead at a certain rate. A great many of the semi -skilled are almost comparable but a great . many of the unskilled and some of the semi -skilled are not moving ahead at the same rate. Councilman Snyder: May I put it this way then, the purpose of your service was then not only make a comparison with other cities but to make a valid comparison within the positions within the cities? Were these differences shown at least modified by the :internal comparison? Mr. Gold: Yes they were. We did recheck and we do have this factor of quality difference which is in the area you are discussing and when a greater workload or a greater responsibility for classes with the same title, range, general qualifications, etc. , we do assume that judgement and make it as comparable and fair as possible and by and large those quality difference factors this year were very similar, if not identical, to what they were 2 years ago. .And the reason the issue is arising on the Fire Captain and -.Sergeant is when we used the same quality difference factors before the mathematics came out to the original 2 1/2% and an additional quality difference factor would have to be added to justify the 5% rather than.the 2 1/2%. In our supplemental report we thought this was justified and so made our recommendation but at this point is where the Personnel Board disagrees on these two classifications and they are not disagreeing with the other quality differences . . . is Councilman,.Snyder- What page is that, on the justification? Mr. Gold: If you look on Page 7 you will. see where there are 3 classes, Police- Sergeant, Police Officer and Dispatcher -Clerk. (Mr. Gold then explain- ed.) You will notice the Police Officer has no quality difference factor which is in line with our previous recommendations. , In your Fire Department or Police. Depart- -. 7 - ADJ. C. C . 7/5/66 ANNUAL.SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Page Eight ment you will notice in our first report that we are not just picking these things out of whole cloth but on Page 10 and 11 you will see we have the total number of. personnel • in the Police and Fire Departments of West Covina and you are provided the 10 city average. In the'Police Department you have 82 employees and you have a 10 city average of 85 1/2 employees; and in the Fire Department you have 62 employees compared to the average of 69.4. .If your City is as comparable as it can.be with these 10 other cities in area, assessed valuation, etc. , but is still policingitself and maintaining its Fire -Department on substantially less personnel, this is, of course, of great value to a City. Your Fire -Department has a very full schedule of commerical inspections by company response areas and company commanders. This is not true but in only one or two of the other criteria cities. So you are getting a full service, even a superior one, with less personnel, so it would seem that the City might justify a quality difference for those people making this possible, which is certainly the Department Head down through your first line of supervision. Perhaps, and we don't think so, it doesn't make that much difference in a police officer or a fireman position where they don't supervise. So this is the reason behind the quality difference - that quality difference remains the same in this report, because your figures with the relative cities remains the same. As I have explained with the Department Heads concerned, if through a budget incident they gravitate to the average or above average employees, this quality difference will disappear. They are maintaining their position this year and therefore the quality difference remains intact and justified. The other 10 cities raised .Police Sergeant and Fire Captains somewhat differently apparently in the last 2 years than the other ranks in the • Departments, so the strict averaging of the 10 cities salaries and the application of 1% differential for quality difference, only justifies a one-half range for them instead of 5%. Therefore, in our review we were faced with the possibility that something has been prevailing for 1963-' 64-' 65 and possibly through this year, is now being changed by some arithmetic, which is certainly valid because we checked it out a dozen times, and with the City growing as rapidly as it is you may be changing these 10 cities to several different ones in the very near future and it seems to us that in view of that fact if you did conduct these annexations in the near future you vvo uld undoubtedly send your first line public relations services into these areas to service them, even though that is not legally necessary .......... If you did that you would be increasingtheir response areas and increasing the square miles and number of citizens responsible for, therefore this might not be an appropriate time to pull down the first line supervision that would undoubtedly be among the first to take the burnt of this new effort. So perhaps this was not entirely ,the time to do that, but to hold with the present alignment of these positions and wait until next year before making the change or - if they should be sustained. It is entirely clear to me, if you feel that the annexations are an iffy issue at best and not a certainty, that then you might make a different recommendation then we made "in our second recommendation. Councilman Snyder: . In negotiating, do,you take cognizance of the fact that the Public Safety employee as a group are better represented as a group then the other city employees that are acting in many cases as individuals, whereas the Public • Safety have a greater negotiating power. 'Mr. Gold: I believe so. There were only two sessions for Police and Fire, one for each, which lasted a few minutes during the day and the rest of the time was taken up with the other individuals, probably 100 of them and constituted the other 11 hours of the day. I still understand there are one or two groups that didn't get the word about the operations on that day, but I think it is a relatively minor group .... I want to go on record voluntarily and say the'Police and Fire did not approach us. I feel like I am making a denial of something that no one as r • 0 ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 Page Nine yet has accused us of, but there is a certain feeling I get in talking informally with other people that the Police and Fire in being organized, are a little more persuasive than the other employees might be and I wanted to state clearly that our recommendation was entirely on our own, we were not approached by the Department Heads, the personnel, or anyone, it came through the normal manner, we were not pressured in anyway. Councilman Snyder: Thank you. 'City Manager Aiassa: Do you, Mr. Mayor, want the figures? Our original budget figure was :$108,900. Our revised figures were $85,950.. This estimate of $85, 950 was on the original report of: Mr. Gold's that did not include the two areas .............. "Probably pretty close to $87, 000 or $89, 000. This was actually computed from the Gold report received. Mayor Krieger: I: gather: from Mr. Gold's correspondence and report, and from the actions of the Personnel Board, that the position taken by Mr. Russell, President of the Employees' Association, as to a percentage across-the-board increase was rejected, as not the correct approach to this particular analysis, is that basically correct? 'Mr. Gold: Basically, from my analysis it was not correct. Mr. Sornborger: By giving a continuous across-the-board increase we are walking on dangerous ground, primarily it contends to throw the alignments out. Mayor Krieger: Isn't this in fact, the problem we had about two years ago with the great disparity in these positions, because of this right across-the-board increases? Mr. Sornborger: This is why we get so far off and have to make so many internal adjustments. Councilman Nichols: Mr. -Mayor,. I would like to give a few remarO .. they will probably be giving the appearance of being somewhat critical. In the time I have had the opportunity to serve on the City Council. I thi.nk .I have demonstrated a consistent concern for the welfare of our employees' future, in, terms of their remuneration for services and..I think in my, judgment we have probably the outstanding group of city employees in the E.S.G.V. I am a little bit concerned here and would like to express these concerns - although slightly critical - and hope that you gentlemen that come from the City Employee group will at least weigh them. The°Personnel Board has made a recommendation. None of the gentlemen of the City are rookies in terms of the city service, in terms of knowing the mechanics of these things and how they are done. This has been done before almost in .lock -step fashion ,in terms of the approach,through .Mr. Gold and the Personnel. Board, and then the City Council; and if any group of employees up to the time the Personnel Board hearings and past that tothe time of the Board's action, were not: aware of what was occurring or the recommendations that were being made, I think, the responsibility lies more with the employees than with any breakdown in procedure. Because, if I were vitally interested in salary considerations, discussions and recommendations and I was aware that Mr. Gold was on the premises again and the Personnel Board was meeting, I would be making inquiries all over the place,as to what was happening and if I couldn't find out I would doggone well try and find out. The Personnel Board has made a recommendation after a Study and one group of employees say we haven't been able to get our pitch across, yet it is now coming and in fact if the Council - 9 - ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 ANNUAL SALARY ADTUSTMENTS Continued Page Ten acts within the time it should reasonably be acting, it will act on a Personnel Board recommendation that has been made before the groups have any opportunity to talk. This is like closing the barn door after the horse:gets out of it. - The other thought I have -'is that it has been my recollection in the past few years that our organized employee group and particularly Public Safety have been very anxious that our City should tie itself in terms of salary to key cities and in fact in the process of the selection of these cities the Employees' group themselves raised certain objections, and I believe certain considerations were given to that, and finally I believe you - Jerry - yourself, stood before the Council and expressed a general satisfaction with the City's selection at that time. We have constantly, as a City, attempted to stay in the upper range of the cities picked. Either we are going.to use cities that have what we term a comparable situation and base our salaries on those or we are not. It seems to me that it is going to be inevitable in some years in some circumstances it will throw one group off one year or another group off another year, but still it is an objective type of comparison. If we go back to the historical. thing and saywe have set up` this_ differential sometime back and we want to stick to that, then we are not sticking to the concept we arguedfor when we said .let's take these cities and make valid comparisons. So my reaction, as objectively as I can look at this thing, is sort of this way - we say it is:fine to use these cities as long as we come out fine, but if we get pinched a little bit then we want to modify and digress a little bit from an absolute comparison, and I am sure if it happened to me I would be the first one for seeking modification. .I do want to point 'out that the Study has been an objective study and any modification here has resulted because of projected con- ditions that are built into the comparison program that the Employees' group. them- selves, actively sought and actively supported, and to ask the- Council to depart from that objectivity is in effect saying we concur that if you have at anytime now or in the future, justification for departing from this objectivity, which at some future might be inimical for all of the interestsof all of the employees- - so I point that out. , Finally, I have great faith and appreciation of andrespect for the Personnel Board. They have spent many hours on.this matter, as well as on many other matters. They meet far more times than their once a month schedule and they do delve into these things in far greater detail then d, so unless some condition evolves that I certainly can't foresee at this time, and -if our City Manager feels that the City Council can afford this, and unless some further information comes out why I should not accept the recommendations of. the Personnel Board, I would be -inclined at this time to decide to go onIrecord as saying I have studied the report and read .it in balance and I feel that the recommendations are about as -fair as they can be made objective - and certainly go to the ultimate in the City's final capabilities. Mayor Krieger: I would like to pursue this funding. I don't quite understand, in the tentative budget --$89, 500, If the first Gold proposal was used, if the basis in arriving at that figure of the Personnel Board's recommendation, with the exception of the Park Tree Foreman and a Park.Leadman, which both represent $14.00 a month increases, and a Sr. Building Inspector which is a .$20. 00 a month -increase, and a Plan Checker which is:$38.0.0 a month increase- how do we get from $89, 500 to almost $100, 000, using • the first Gold report as modified by the Personnel Board? City=Manager Aiassa: Mr.. Kay actually took this proposal and computed it on .the calculator. ,This was towards the last meeting of our budget. -Mayor Krieger: Perhaps the record should reflect then that the staff does not know at this step what this recommendation figures out in .dollars and cents? I believe this is a question, that at least, as one councilman, I would like to have the answer too. This is a budget that we spent sessions on in June, took these figures into consideration - and an adjustment on any portion of the budget is necessarily going to affect the other - 10 - • • ADf. . C. . C. 7/5/66 Page Eleven ANNUAL SALARY:ADTUSTMENTS - Continued portions of the budget. City Manager Aiassa: As the Council recalls, this was left as a lump sum reserved only for salary adjustments. We originally computed approxi- mately a little over 5%; that is where we get the $105, 000 that was a straight across-the-board raise. That was done in early May. Then'.Mr. Kay took the tentative proposal of Mr. Gold and computed it on the calculator. . Now to pin Mr.. Kay down, I can't, until I analyze how he computed his figures. All. I can tell you is what he stated tome when he gave me the $85, 000 figure. Councilman Nichols: My recollection Mr. Mayor, was that the figure he put in was a 4% figure and actually here is the difference. City Manager Aiassa: Mr. Kay did take the breakdown because he took time out. But in answer to Mayor Krieger's question for an exact figure, I will have to recompute the whole analysis and see if there is a possible error.. . Mayor Krieger: I think philosophically we are not approaching this as an average percentage or an across-the-board percentage or anything of that sort, but approaching it within the classifi- cation of the benchmarks categorically. The only thing I am desirous of interpreting from these are two questions: One is the validity of the recommendation of each of the classifications; secondly, within our budgetary capacity, even.if we philosophi- cally accept these recommendations, are we in the position to fund them. Any other comments ? Councilman Gillum: I have no comments at this time. Councilman Gleckman: I have a couple of comments. I felt at the. time of budget that we were facing an increase in salary and I felt that at that time we were aware approximately of the amount of- money'such an.increase,would total. .I believe the increase we are talking about is below the amount that we tentatively budgeted .for the raise. City -Manager Aiassa: Primarily we recommended.$105, 000 and after Kay's computa- tion on.the first report we came out with the $85,000. Councilman Gleckman: Thank you. I can understand the quality difference - I have talked with:.Mr. Gold and discussed this previously, but I have one or two other questions. First, I would .like to compliment. Mr. Gold and the -Personnel .Board. With all their recommendations made, I find there are only two areas in which there is some disagreement, which is very admirable for a report of this size. . But regarding the Fire Captain and the Police Sergeant classification, . Mr. Gold, if you don't mind, and I believe you and .I dis- cussed this previously, but I still don't understand one thing. The first report was a 2 1/2% step increase. After protest hearings you went to 5%. Upon my asking you why, you talked about annexation. Mr. Gold: Right. Councilman Gleckman: I would like to know was this the substance of the conversa- tion in the protests from the people who felt they were not getting the- 5% but 2 1/2%, were they -talking annexations in ADJ. C. C 7/5/66 Page Twelve 0 ANNUAL SALARY'ADJUSTMENTS - Continued justifying their raise from 2 I/2% to,5% or were there other circumstances -involved? Mr. Gold: No they weren't discussing annexations in.these two glassi- fications . They were primarily making :the point that in 1963='64 when our surveys ,were made that a relationship had been -established. so that between Fire. Captain and Fire Engineer there was a 3 range difference, and between -Fireman and.Fire Engineer .a two range difference; and between Sergeant and Police Officer, there. was a certain pattern. And, I believe, a very.strong point was made today, that this judgment having prevailed at that time it seemed.logical it should hold, true now. „Secondly, both of these Departments are continuing. to grow but in a total number of, personnel less than the average of the 10 surveyed cities. So you have this situation,prevailing and this point was made by the'Police Sergeants that? or 8 officers were added, to. the.,payroll which added to the total number of people and to the Police -Sergeants work rather than diminishing their work. And in the Fire Department the counterpart argument was made that you are one of the few cities in the County and to the credit of your Chief and the rest of the officers of the Department -and the City Manager; you are conducting a very full scale of field investigations under the`Fire Captains. in their..own ,particular fire station and response areas in the supervision of commercial, structures . 'Strangely enough, that is -not a totally acceptable concept for- running. Fire Departments. Many, Fire= Depart- . meets have a Fire Marshall's office or. a Fire Prevention Bureau, but your Department is riot that way and they continue "o have duties added and supervisorial responsibili- ties. Even in the last couple of years, it,was„pointed out, that the Chief is requiring staff az)nferences, extra responsibilities, etc.,, for all kinds of things requiring off - duty work, and those were the two pointsI believe were made -for the groups at issue. Those were persuasive to us because we happened to agree that you, are doing a very good job with a lesser number of staff and doing it very well. However, . I must admit from my own ,point of view that after returning to the City a nd reviewing substantially all Department Heads, I found a far greater annexa- tion plan for this coming year. than I had, anticipated and the original quality factor, in my opinion had taken care of the _difference in the Sergeants and Fire Captains positions but it did not justify more .'than ;the.2 1/2%. increase so that could not be the sole factor on which we `would make such a judgment, but I did foresee that' next year you might b-e .comparing with 10 different cities suchas:Downey, Compton and. Pasadena and'a quick check would show that, y_our.relationship a-s far as Fire Captain and Sergeant would in that coming. year lead us into a ,position of going on for 3 years at one level of relationship,. dipp.i.ng that relationship this year and probably returning to the old relationship next year.. .A rather inconsistent policy and one that maybe all employees would not understand, and therefore, in view of the fact that it is my experience when. Icitie,s annex, a sizeable area they do send their patrol cars into the area and the Fire; -Department - the cities usually want to demonstrate goodwill, and :i f you do. these. things it. falls more positive on the Fire and Police than on the other Departments such as Recreation &, Park, Street, Planning or any other. Planning, has had a lot of _work .to,. get ready for these things, but there is not .going,, to be. any new ,greatly, energized amount of things after the annexation .is through. . Now that w,as the, judgment we made. . Councilman Gleckman: Now from what you. have said,, then.I am surmising now _that the 3 step that presently exists -in the Police Sergeant position that„you.feel was maybe not or may be justified, .2 years ago.when, it was made, but is, not justified at this particular time but, should be dropped to a '2 I/2 step? Mr. Gold: If we are going to stick with the original assumptions. - 12 - ADJ. . C, C. 7/5/66 ANNUAL SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Page -Thirteen Councilman Gleckman: If we get into annexations, we have the whole of the City • employees involved and I am trying to speak on the two points at hand. Councilman Snyder: I understood you to say, at least in part, on these two positions, the annexation factor did influence you, but it did not in any other? Mr. Gold: That is correct, because in my judgment there are no other Departments going to be affected .in this same way in this coming year. Planning has already been affected to what it will be affected. Councilman. Snyder: If you have ever talked with these people, you will understand that they will be much happier to see a street sweeper than the Police or Fire. I don't just think this is the correct assumption. Mr. Gold: It will result in the adding of a street sweeper but not result in the adding of duties to the present sweeper. Councilman Snyder: It will probably result in the adding of policemen and firemen also. Mr. Gold: But not at the Fire Captain or the Police Sergeant level. This is a judgment placed upon a certain assumption which I would clearly understand if the Personnel Board and the City Council did not agree, because it is a little different then any other assumption we have made. Councilman Gleckman: My last question —the explanations you just gave us as to the protest hearings from the 3 step position to the 2 1/2% step position. Is and has the Personnel Board heard that . type of testimony from you and what your recommendation was prior to this evening? Mr. Gold: Yes. We discussed it very thoroughly. Mayor Krieger: When did the subject of annexation first come to your atten- tion? Mr. Gold: The annexations and the size of it only came after the rendering of the first report. Mayor Krieger: And in what manner? Mr. Gold: Actually not by the way of the employees making it a case for themselves, but it was from the Planning Department - when looking into their positions it came to -light and I certainly became aware of the sizeable annexation activity involved. Mayor Krieger: We don't mean to beat this particular aspect to death but we are trying to delve into somewhat the considerations that you and the Personnel Board took cognizance of with respect to your summary report under date of June 8, ; entitled -Special Memorandum to West - 13 - ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 Page Fourteen ANNUAL SALARY ADJUSTMENTS - Continued Covina, on the last page thereof it is not listed there. Mr. Gold: My copy does have it listed and because I have been expand- ing consistently on this since the end of May, when this was under review and I didn't have enough information to put it down at that time . . . . Mayor. Krieger: As policy makers we will insist on having a full and complete copy of what you base your recommendation on. So I suggest you make it available to the Personnel Board and the City Council. Mr. Gold: Right. This Number 2 report does give you the ranges, compari- sons, etc. , and I believe you will note a remarkable consistency at range 3 or 4 of the comparable cities because you are dealing with pre -established ranges. Mayor Krieger: Any other comments or questions? This is an adjourned regular meeting, action is in order or you can hold it over. Mr. , Sornborger you have a comment? Mr. Sornborger: I would like to make a comment. I think this issue on quality differential and annexations is a point. I think without • question and the Board members please correct me if I am wrong - the Board was not willing to accept future annexations as a consideration. Secondly, in the past we have been stuck with what we call a Y rating. This means a person is paid a certain salary at a certain date and then a year later his salary does not change or is too great for that position and we have to Y rate it. We like to stay very clear of Y rating individuals, so if you go into the quality differential and we come up with annexations in the future and we allowed .a weight of 2 1/2% or whatever it may be, on .quality differential and then we decide to add personnel, you reduce responsibilities to a certainextent, particularly where you increased a sergeant or fire captain, consequently if the weighted factor of quality differential is such, this man may be overpaid in the position he holds at that time. .If he is he gets Y rated. The person that gets no raise when others do is usually an unhappy person. I . Councilman Snyder: Would it be proper or advisable if the City does accomplish substantial annexations within the coming year, would it be proper at this time for the Personnel Board and Mr. Gold to at least put these positions for review within the year for possible raise changes if at such time the annexations would go through? Mayor Krieger: This would strictly be at the direction of .the Council. I would only call your attention to our direction of the staff before we considered any of these annexations, to provide us with economic feasibility studies and we persisted in some length in the validity of the figures they brought befc�-_e usand .I would only suggest to you if you interject now extraneous consider,6ti.ons you might jeopardize the validity of those projections as to the economic feasibility of the annexations to begin with. Councilman Snyder: I would certainly agree with you, but if in effect the annexa- tions are going to bring up some economic considerations that we have not considered then we are hiding our head in the sand if we don't make preparations at this time. We shouldn't expect the staff - 14 - ADJ. . C. C. 7/5/66 Page Fifteen ANNUAL SALARY: ADJUSTMENTS - Continued to know what kind of salary changes are going to be made because of the annexations. They have to go on the salaries at the present time. • Mayor Krieger: This again goes to what Mr. Sornborger was pointing out, that if you get too deeply into the question of objectives and evaluations you are further confusing the question as to the prediction table. Councilman Snyder: All I am indicating is that studies need not be made now, but these positions be at least kept open.for review at such time that annexations might prove the need .for change. Councilman Nichols: I would certainly concur with;Dr. Snyder, and if these major annexations concur it probably would be this coming year and if heavy responsibilities do begin to accrue on anyone that we will be back in our next annual salary review by that time. Mr. , Mayor, if a motion is in order I would like to move that the Council carry this matter over to the next regular meeting of this month, July 25th, and that we direct the Personnel Board in the interim to hear any. further protest hearings they may desire to conduct and that they hold such hearings in time sufficient to give any supplemental recommendations that they may have to the Council prior to July 25th. Motion seconded by-Counc-ilman_Snyder. • Mayor Krieger: Motion moved and seconded. Any discussion on the matter? All in favor: Councilman Gleckman,, Snyder, Nichols, Gillum and Mayor Krieger. Opposed: None Mayor Krieger: Hearing no opposition, it is found unanimously by ,the Council that this matter will be held over for the agenda of July- 2 5th . Mr. Aiassa and Mr. - Sornborger, the Personnel Board .is requested to submit to us, prior to that date and certainly prior to the distribution of our agenda material on the Friday preceding the July 25th meeting, the final comments and recommendations of revision, if any, by the Personnel Board. Mr., Sornborger: We will be happy to do that. . May i reply somewhat to -Dr. Snyder? If the City Council would so desire, with your direction, if the Planning Department could furnish to the Board some estimate regard- ing population, etc. , with regard to the prospective annexations, the Board would be happy to start working on comparative cities. As I can see it, this is the only way we can start working on any type of salary costs. Councilman .Nichols: I would move in that connection .Mr.. Mayor, that the°Planning Department be directed, as a matter of policy, to forward to the Chairman of each of the City's commissions, copies of • all pertinent data involving actions, official city actions, relative to annexations as these actions occur. This will keep your commissions apprised and .informed and I would further move that a copy of the annexations study be made available to the Chairman of the Personnel Board. Councilman Gleckman seconded. Mayor Krieger: Motion has been made, and seconded, are there any comments or discussion on the motion? - 15 - • • • ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 Page Sixteen ANNUAL SALARYADJUSTMENTS - Continued All in favor: Councilmen Gillum, Nichols,. Snyder, Gleckman c' T rC; y: r J n Opposed: Kayor Krieger Councilman Snyder: Certainly this is pertinent to being able to advise the Council at the time annexations take place, whether we should hire more personnel. Councilman Gleckman: In an annexationI think all your commissions are involved, as well as all the people in the City of West Covina-, so if we can get information to the people making recommendations to the City Council, it is a step in the right direction. Mayor Krieger: Is there any further action on this agenda item - Mr. Aiassa? City -Manager Aiassa: I believe this annexation problem is very complex. In the first place the study encompassed the entire City of West Covina - we are dealing in an elected activity and I sure don't want any staff and maybe even the Personnel Board to become involved in something unless it becomes a reality, because we can absorb the present annexation without any additional staff, - it all depends on the annexations. But other annexations depending on the terrian type, etc. , requires a lot of extensive personnel. I would say we have a lot of "ifs" so I think if the Personnel Board would have to get this information that they should handle it on.that basis, because it is not accurate. Mayor Krieger: I am sure the Board wo uld consider it on that basis. Anything further on this matter? The chair will then recess at 9 p.m. until 9: 05. CITY ATTORNEY: RETIREMENT AND RETAINER Mayor Krieger: You received in your council mail on Friday a proposed .Resolution which the City Attorney prepared for our meeting last Monday and at the direction of the Council was circu- lated among the Council for your review this evening. As -I remember, from his comments, the change from the Occidental to the State Retirement System is the primary motivation for this review. City Manager Aiassa: Since we have gone under the SERS the City Attorney is classified as an employee not in a sense of our Civil Service Commission,but he is eligible for participation in the SERS. There is a letter that has to be signed by me (Mr. Aiassa read the letter) . Under this provision Mr. Williams will be actually covered under the Slate Retirement System and you have also received copies of all the letters sent by Mr. Williams office to the State Retirement and the most recent letter was in May, in which they asked for this specific information of Mr. Williams' time of employment. Mayor Krieger: Basically the question as posed is whether or not the necessity for the Resolution.is predicated on the State Retirement System or some other reason. - 16 - ADJ. C. Co 7/5/66 Page Seventeen CITY'ATTORNEY- RETIREMENT AND RETAINER - Continued City Manager Aiassa': Primarily for the State Retirement. • Councilman Nichols: I have a direct recollection of Mr. Williams statement to the Council, at which time he said that his request for adjust- ment in his remuneration was related to what he projected as the average increase being granted to the employees in the City and I have no recollection that it had any direct relationship to the State Retirement or implied relationship, although I don't state this to impute -Mr.. Aiassa's statement, as there may well have been conversations that he enjoyed and: I didn't hear, but his statement to us on the Council was that it related to the average increase being given to the other employees. Councilman Gleckman: Not only that but I think we are confusing the idea of the insurance with the change -over of his partner- ship - going into a partnership association he would have to in turn pay back to the partnership the difference because of the tax situation. Mayor Krieger: Is Section 3 of the proposed resolution in addition to the wording of the present resolution#1072, in which it talks about the city attorney shall be deemed to be on a part-time duty and shall not be deemed to be within the classified service of the City? City Manager Aiassa: I had this Section 3 specifically inserted so that he would not come under the classified service of the City, if he does he is entitled to vacation, sick leave, etc. Mayor Krieger: But Section 3 does not appear wi thin the present Resolution 1072, does it? City Manager Aiassa: I don't have a copy of that Resolution. (Mr. Flotten was asked to secure a copy of Resolution .#1072) Mayor Krieger: The second question, what is the present remuneration of the City Attorney per month? (Discussion followed regarding present salary of City Attorney and additional cost for S.E�R.S.) City Manager Aiassa: The attorney's salary was,$12,120 and in the budget we figured $ .2, 600. I figured approximately 4% for the cost of S.E.R.S. Mayor Krieger: . Any other comments or questions ? Councilman, Nichols: I don't believe, in my opinion, that I am qualified to speak on the effectiveness of Mr. Williams as a City Attorney • in reference to his work, but I don't believe that I can accept the thesis that we should pay our City Attorney on a basis relating to the salary schedule of the employees of the City and this is what he said to this council a week or so ago. At least I haven't seen this come about since I have been on the council and we don't pay our City Manager on a percentage basis that relates directly to the City employees, but deal with him in terms with our City employees, and certainly a City Attorney ,in no way becomes a city employee and should get percentage raises based upon the raises given as an average 'raise to the city - 17 - - ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 CITY ATTORNEY- RETIREMENT AND RETAINER - Continued Page Eighteen employees, soI think this proposal from the City. Attorney from the point of reference and my reaction to it is that it is totally invalid. If he is seeking an adjustment in his contractural arrangement with the City, then as a councilman I would need a far greater degree of information to act on then I now have and that information would include: What his total; remuneration was from the City during the past year? What his extra payments were and for what services? And on a comparison of like cities °what other city attorneys are paid as base salary and what their services are and what their extra remunerations are for? If we are being asked to consider a salary adjust- ment for the city attorney, we have no information to base that adjustment on or if it should be made. City -Manager Aiassa-. In reply to Mayor Krieger's question. In Section 2 of the Resolution the figure is. $700 adopted January, 28, 1957. The main thing he is changing here is the language. (Read Resolution) Mayor Krieger: Is what you are reading the resolution presently in effect? City; Manager Aiassa: Yes, Resolution #1072. ':Mayor Krieger: I gather from the figure quoted as his present salary that it is not the Resolution presently in effect. Ci.ty''Manager Aiassa: Actually.lt maintained the basic resolution and by motion of Council you have adjusted his salary. . Since 1962 his salary was $960 a month and his legal and special representation was $23 ® 324.. (Explained due to suits in that year) In 1963 it is $1010 per month and his total outside activities $7323 for special services® in 1964 $1010 per month outside legal expenses $18, 739 . In 1965 $1010 and special representations totalled $9335. Mayor Krieger: Then his present monthly salaryis. $1010 per month. City Manager Aiassa: Right;. . He has asked for a $40, 00 monthly increase which is approximately 4% per month. (Discussion followed on costof special legal reimbursements. . Pointed out by Dr. Snyder that it covers the actual cost for briefs, clerical help, etc.) Mayor Krieger: Does Section 3 appear, in that Resolution? City Manager Aiassa: Yes. It says the'City Attorney shall. not be deemed to be within the classified service of the . City and shall not be deemed to be under the employees' retirement system'. Mayor Krieger: Does it contain language - 'the:City Attorneyshall be deemed to be on part-time duty'? City Manager Aiassa: 'Shall not be deemed to be on regular duty, shall not be deemed to be within the classified services of the City and shall not be deemed to be subject to the employees' retirement system but that said retainer shall be deemed and considered as a professional retainer fee'. Mayor Krieger: And where does it say 'that it shall be deemed to be on part- time duty'? 18 ADJ. Co Co 7/5/66 Page Nineteen CITY`ATTORNEY- RETIREMENT AND RETAINER - Continued City;Manager Aiassa- It doesn't say. that, that is what he is changing. Mayor Krieger- Is this language -'shall be deemed to be on part -tame duty' - is this related to the question of the State Retirement System? Ci.ty�'Manager Aiassa- Yes - under the original Occidental agreement he was not eligible Mayor Krieger- Does this language involve the City paying an additional remuneration? City Manager Aiassa- Yes Mayor Krieger- How much are we talking about? CityManager Aiassa. The actuary has not worked out the actual. dollars and pennies of it, but we would have to pay him back to the period of 1957. 'Mayor Krieger- Isn't this in effect a form of compensation? City 'Manager Aiassa-, Yes, but he has to dig out of his own pocket to match. . (Discussion followed) . 'Mayor Krieger- I suggest, gentlemen, that we may need some further informa- tion on this matter. The points that have been discussed I appreciate, butwe are interested in ascertaining from the City Attorney and from staff his total. remuneration during the last fiscal year. What extra compensation he received during, in addition to his base salary, the past fiscal year? With a comparison of city"attorney compensations from similar cities,, wemight use our benchmark cities for comparison. And what financial contribution would be necessary for the City to make in terms of contributions to the ' S. E o Ro S . to bring entitlement current. Councilman. Gillum- Would it be possible to find out exactly what we are entitled to for this $1050 a month? What services do we receive "for his present salary? 'Mayor Krieger. Anything further that; you desire for our action in this particular matter? City'Manager Aiassa- I have made the sur�_ey of 10 cities. (mentioned a few and Mayor Krieger advised that at present they did not wish to have the details of the survey- present it in total on the 10 comparison cities.) Does the City Council have any additional cities ? Mayor Krieger- You gentlemen are satisfied with the 10 benchmark cities that we use for salary comparison? Let's obtainthat informa- tion then. Is there a motion to hold agenda item #3 over to the meeting of July 25th? I.t was so moved by; Councilman, Gleckman and seconded by Councilman Gillum. All in favor. Councilmen Snyder, Nichols,.Gleckman,.Gillum and Mayor Krieger. Opposed- None 19 - ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 COUNCIL REPORTS Page Twenty Mayor Krieger asked for the reports. . Councilman Gillum said he had no report. Councilman Nich olsv Mr. Cit:y'Manager, we received a report in the mail saying that the investigation of certain premises on Azusa Avenue had been made and that 7 containers of chlorine gas were there and that it was deemed a no -safety hazard. I am not satisfied with the,report. I recognize the capability of the Fire Inspector to evaluate this thing, but I still question. This property abates single family "property and I have heard all my life that this is an explosive element and can .be under certain conditions very dangerous and harmful. I thought it was not an adequate report as it came back to us and I would like to have furnished to the Council an explanation as to why this was not deemed to be in anyway a hazard, before it blows up. ;(Discussion. It was pointed out by Dr,, Snyder that it is highly toxic but not explosive) Councilman, Nichols- I would like to know a little bit more about it. I would like to know why it wasn't, a hazard. Councilman Gleckman.- No comments Councilman i Snyder. We have a letter dated July l from the West Covina Water Company .. o 0 City�Manager Aiassa� I was holding off until my report of the l lth. Councilman Snyder- He states in here that the cost of this Water Company would be 9 million as compared to the cost of the acquisition .of Suburban which was 4 million ('Mr. A assa explained this was put in the Council mail by the, City Clerk because the letter was sent to the City Clerk's office, and that normally Council would not receive it without a complete report.) Councilman 1 Snyder- Hadn't we be prepared to make a report? City"Manager Aiassao I will have a summary report made. Mayor Krieger- Regarding the Citizens Blue Ribbon. Committee. As of June 60th we have a grand total. of 621. The Committees that: have received the greatest response are Civic Center, General Plan Updating, Huntington Beach Freeway (which received the most) , Recreation & Park Improvements and Regional Auditorium. . If you remember when ,.I first: reported .I gave you a priority list as to the establishment of these Committees. I would like to deviate from that priority list in one respect - to create from this pool of responses, the Civic Center Blue Ribbon- Committee and the Annexations Blue Ribbon Committee, as soon as possible and defer in scheduled order as presented to • the Council, the actual creation of the following committees. The priority, thatwas established in the,I etter was . Civic Center, Swimming Pools and then Annexations. I just want to interchange the Annexations and Swimming Pools. ,Any objections? (There were no objections) The Mayor will create in order, of priority the Civic Center and the Annexations Blue Ribbon Committees. Councilman;Snyder-, One other item. Sometime ago I asked that the Public Service Department, particularly the Police Department, be included in a Study Session_ on Public Relations and 20 ADJa C... C. 7/5/66 COUNCIL REPORTS - Continued Page Twenty -One there%,was a -poll in.Sunday Times that points up why this is important. The poll indicates. that some 46% of the people in cities of our size have a poor image of their-Police<:Department and this was one of: the things -I had in mind regarding the Study -Session. City: Manager Aiassa: This is scheduled on July 18th, Councilman Snyder: I lost my copy of the Sunday Times, if someone will clip that, it might be helpful. (Someone agreed) Mayor Krieger: Is this all? Then let's move back to Agenda Item No. 2. JOINT MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION Mayor Krieger: Mr. • Shrader ,1 s then e .any comment you would .like to make as Chairman of the Commission? Commissioner Shrader: I would like to acquaint, you with .some of the activities during the last year. Each of you have a copy of the statement I made, which I think.i.s pertinent to the area of -Human Relations in the City of West Covina. If you will, I would suggest you -p-eruse it while I make some of the verbal comments. , I think you are aware that the Human Relations Commission as now apprised has worked, I think diligently and conscientiously, in the area of housingin the City of West Covina. We didsucceed in meeting ..together,.:with what I call the litigants, with the intent of amelerioation and:: according to the original Resolution, that was our role, getting them together. I sat:_,in:-on.-s-everai -meetings but unfortunately I: must report that I was not satisfied with the,Tesults and- quite frankly there is nothing we can do as a Commission, about the results; considering the restrictions under which we operate. I also, apprised you previously _on one specific written complaint - blockbusting by a realtor. , In keeping wi.th;our-promrse to'the Realty Board and with the intent of the Resolution to amelerioa,te=.,and cooperate; we referred the written complaint to the Realty Board for their:. actionand cons' deration,as a consequence we haven't heard a word from them on it yet, _and it is the intention of the Chairman to pursue the matter further before. the.nextmeeting. Also, two other complaints are pending for consideration of the Commission at the next meeting concerning blockbusting, .In other words - unethical realty -practices concerning members of the Realtors Board. The commission consist- ing. of 5 members, I must confess, has a great deal of difficulty in disseminating .proper information with the citizenry as a whole. Those of you who attended the Human Relations meeting at Diamond Bar heard Judge Martin make the statement that if those 5 people spent 15 minutes, worked 12 hours a day - that at some future date .they might get around to all the citizens. .John,Overholt told .me tonight that communications was the essence of good Human .Relations. This is one avenue we will have to figure out. I would like to say publicly and for the record that I am very pleased with the efforts of Rusty Weeks in working with me and attending Is several of these meetings, because I found out I actually had to have a witness to several of the public denials 'I received. I would like further to suggest to you - but don't wish to imply in my statement to take the perogative of any commissioner~ in my statement - but I would like for you to give possible consideration if we intend to pursue Human.Relations to the fullest benefit, to strengthen .it in some manner, shape or form. - 21 - "ADJ. . C. Co 7/5/66 Page Twenty-two JOINT MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION - Continued M'ayor!Kreger: I think the record should reflect that Mr. Overholt and Mrs. Mansell were appointed to the Human Relations Commission • effective as of July l and are present for the purpose of this joint -meeting and that Mr. Beem was unable to attend because of being out of town, -and Mr. Solder is not present. I think that it is rather unfortunate that Mr. • Beem whol is on the Commission 2 years, is unable to be with us on this occasion and..Mr. Solder, on. for one year is not present. .Mrs.: Mansell and Mr. Overholt - recognizing your newness to the Commission the Council will be happy to recognize any comments that you care to make. . Mrs A.. Mansell- Thank you. No comments at present. Mr. Overholt: I have read -Mr. Shrader's report and I concur with its recommenda- tions . Mr.. Shrader: I don't pretend or even profess that some of the recommendations I have made are the final solution, but I do say it is the point of departure for you to give some serious consideration. Mayor Krieger: Any discussion on this particular, agenda item? Councilman Snyder. . Having attended the last two or three Human Relations meetings it is obvious, as Mr. Shrader has pointed out here, that although • on the surface the Realty group in particular had attempted to show .a; spirit of cooperation but in fact pursued a policy of no cooperation and in effect attempted tostymie the Whole'ameli.oration procedure. I think -it is in this area that .,,`the Human. Relations Commission, if they are going to be able to bring people together and solve these problems at the local level, that they need more power, more -influence or more backing of the council to effect greater cooperation by this group. .At' one time and still available, the Human Relations Commission of the State of California was considering coming into West Covina, and I am not sure this is the name of this Commission, but this Commission has subpoena power and could force the cooperation and participation of this group. I for one would not like to see that - I would like to see insome way the influence of the Council along with the Human . Relations Commission to influence this group to sincerely cooperate in solving the problems that are ,present before the Commission. 'Councilman,Nichols: Numberl - it is a philosophical feeling that I have always had and I hold to it that in the area of human relations that which is accomplished under duress is very difficult indeed and sometimes becomes forceful at a later period. I am aware Mr.. Shrader that there are certain limitations upon the ability of the Human Relations Commission to operate in waysthat it might otherwise desire to operate, and I take note of your statement from your Commission. in which they agree that you find the Resolution too restrictive, but in the balance of your -report I do not see any specific recommendations pointed directly at the Resolution as to areas that your Commission would recommend to this Council that that Resolution be changed and I wo uld think that would be appropriate sometime in the future and not illaccepted, that, any specific recommendation that your Commission might have about the Resolution would be for- warded to the Council. Vam very loathe personally to move into any area that smacks of compulsion upon people in areas of their relationships that are not already covered by laws. -By that 1 mean the laws of the Government, State,. Fair Employment Practices Housing, etc. I don't feel that want to physically concur, in some of the -approaches being used, so,I hesitate toapproach any approach t°owards compulsion. . I also feel, however, that Dr.: Snyder`s, °s,ta?terrrent`'is,,-an - 22 - ADJ. . C. C. 7/5/66 Page Twenty-three JOINTMEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION - Continued extremely valid one and that in areas., where .problems_ .have, cometo.the. attention of the Commission, the Council, perhaps, because it has not been called on, or perhaps neg . ligent, the Council has not used its -back�up .,influence,to the extent it might to encourage beneficial results from the -Commission's efforts and I would certainly -hope that I could reactivate myself, and that you, the council, could reactivate -itself to give, the Commission support in its -.efforts to encourage,ypluPtary cooperation among peoples of all races, creeds and colors'. The fi,nal.point - there have been quite a few char es made, I too have. sat on some of the meetings, and I hava attended ,some subsidiary.type. meetings,, but, there are so few specifics. Oftentimes, I have thattheCommission k has asked pe�qpjp,-Io' bring. .private - specific information _ . . I , , .. ; 11. . . .". . ­ . .-p but either later it has not comeforth, or it is darkholed in some fashion,. and I would hope that when a charge is made' before the. Commission that such and such a person said that a certain realty man came and told them such and such a thing, and then the Commission members say - look, _give us the specific data, -,the time, the name of the salesman, etc. , and -they. say-I,don't have it now but will get it. If this ,information does come back I would hope that such, information in terms of specifics would then be referred to the Council. So'I wouldhop.e that the Council with the Human Relations Commission will be,in a more constructive, 11 1 " 1 �.. I 1 11 1. . year and I am not saying that I am -set rigidly against any recommendations, I would weigh any -recommenda- tions very very carefully.. Councilman..Snyder,-. Ithink,this-is one area, where the Commission has been particularly stymied,_they have before them what, in at lea.stlone. instance of specifics, strongly suggests • a violation of the law referring to,,blockbu.sting,.. Thqre.:is aslaw, onthis matter. Both the complaintants and the:Commission,not: wishing -to carry -it to a matter of law attempted by-negotiation,to have .it*settled, within our,.own ranks. The Realty Board promised to cooperate but at the -last, incident they have done nothing about it.. Now the question is if this Is a matter for consideration by,, the District: Attorney and the .Realty Board has failed to settle the matter at their heir own level, �,whose re sponsibility is it to ask the District Attorney, Fegarding',the specifics- or validity of. this charge? Is it the City's responsibility or 'is it to be qiven back to the, complaintants and they go to the District Attorney? Mr.; Shrader: We took the -written- complaint to the cityattorneyand it :was. his opinion that it was a violation, but he also stated that since we had .made this working arrange- ment with _the; Realty -Board, that we should, first,give -them an. opportunity, to cooperate. Councilman Snyder: It y is �m understanding now that they did not,, so now " :: the question is - how far is the Human Relations CommissionempoweTed to act and if they think it should go. this -.r1p1u.t1e,.who should do it,,? This is a policy matter. Mayor Kri'bger- I, think - it is , a. technical _question and to, get a technical answer you ,would .have ,,to, look at the Resolution creat iqg.t4e-.HumanRelations -,Commi,,s,sion, I think, before. we go to the specific.point. ,We should take cognizance of the fact'that this COmmissioniisi, now 2 years old, it was born, in our community,, with a number of dissenting votes, both on the council and in the community, as -to its -validity or necessity'. I believe it hasnot only -just . ified its existence -in the 2 years but has merited our, concern..... It has - met with us -,during this 2.years on various occasions with respect to proposals brought, before us. I know of, only one, instance where the Council took action contrary to the request of the Human Relations Commission. I think, on the whole, the majority of the Council have supported the Human Rela I tions Commission by its -voice and its vote.. .It took a certain amount of courage on certain - 23 - ADJo - C. C. 7/5/66 Page Twenty-four JOINT MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION - Continued councilman to come out and publicly support this commission. It wasn't a universally accepted idea. The fact that it does exist in our Community, I think, is a credit. Councilman Gleckman pointed out to, us in reporting back to the Council that this was a matter of paramount concern to the League of California Citi es at their meeting, and a great deal of emphasis on the need of such a Commission was 'placed, and the fact that we have a Human -Relations Commission emphasizes that --this City is not behind but is the forerunner of this type of concept. There are certain areas where you can legislate and there are certain areas where the legis- lation rebounds to the detriment of the concept of what you are trying to create. The "purpose of the Commission's creation was to fulfill a need and was spelled out in the Resolution and if we are going to concern ourselves with what the Commission should do in a specific area if it does not fall within the specific province of the Resolution then we have one or two alternatives . One is to tell them that this is not within their province and responsibility, to terminate their activities if they don't feel that good can be accomplished within the framework of their powers, or secondly, is to provide a legal requisite by Resolution to empower them to do so. We allowed them to study formal complaints, we allowed them to initiate and encourage activities to promote inter -racial harmony. We empowered them to foster mutual understanding and respect and keep the Council informed on all matters. Some of this is philosphical and in the application raises questions on how they are to go about doing these things. In the vast majority of the cases that have appeared before the Commission they have successfully carried this out. Much of their work has gone unnoticed in the Community and much of the good they. have accomplished has been done in the fact that they did it with a minimum of . publicity and to the satisfaction of the people that appeared before them or if not to the satisfaction at least to the understanding of the people before them. In some instances the people that had the opportunity to appear before them failed to do so, failed to act to the challenge to come out in the public and expound their case ...... Many of these things are not a matter of public awareness but are of interest to you _ and are within our knowledge. I speak now to the question which has been raised,, that is in a specific situation who takes the intiative where there is a problem area created and a possible violation of the law has occurred. Surprisingly, I take the position that this is not the province of the.Human Relations Commission. I don't . believe the Commission should be conditioned in the form of an indicting agency or a complaintant. I think if there has been a crime committed, whether it be in the field of Human, -Relations or personal offense it is for the complaintant to -personally appear before the necessary indicting agency, in this case the District Attorney, and file a formal complaint with the District Attorney, who has the formal province to decide then and there whether or not it is reasonable to file -a complaint and prosecute....... The Human Relations Commission as I con- ceive it was created to act as lintermidiary, as an ameliorating body within its powers and provinces where there is a problem area that is capable of intelli- gent solution. To create a dialogue so people don't have the feeling of utter frustration. This was created so that they would have a place to go. . I did not conceive it in my mind 2 years ago and I don't conceive it now, as a .Grand • Jury who returns at the end of it's deliberation an indictment, or as a step on its way to an indictment. . This is not to be construed as any suggestion, of acceptance or commendation for a specific situation that has come before this body. I think in the instance of the specific complaint that was made and was documented in terms of the specific problem that I believe that they have acted in part, if not, overly at least covertly -I think the Commission and- particularly the Chairman has extended themselves not beyond their powers of the mandate of the Resolution but in an attempt to carry out within the law of the Resolution of their province - 24 - ADJ. Co Co 7/5/66 Page Twenty -Five DINT HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION - Continued and have been rebuffed a affronted in. certain of these attempts and I think it is to their credit that they have acted as dispassionately and objectively in as many of these situations as they have. But I think only in this type of response are we going to make some type of headway. .I think,if there is a hard and'fast line drawn where the Human Relations. Commission takes on the concept of a Grand Jury -I think --.it will unfortunately prejudice the good this. Commission can do in the vast majority of the matters that come before it. Councilman Snyder. I would agree with ,that o You said it very well. . But I thi.nki.n regard to this specific case then about all the Human. p ati,ons Commii.ssion can ,do is make an official report that in their opinion they are rebuffed by a certain Agency and perhaps there 'would be nothing wrong .if the complaintant , or it would be advisable if the: complaintant wishes to pursue it further that they .contact_ the proper agency, .such as the District: Attorney, that the. City cannot act as their agent. But certainly, I thinkit should be on record 'that the Human:Relations Commission tried to secure voluntary cooperation and were rebuffed. Councilman Gleckmano Mr.,.Mayor., .I think again I have ,mixed emotions about this -Commission. I want to compliment them on the job they have done, . I am trying to find out, in just what areas the City Council has not backed them up, „And I think. from what -I heard of in discussing some of the problems, that the -Commission has undertaken it is all. very well for them to be a.aounding board and if the complaintant who has • been injured decides not to take it any further.,thati.n no manner, shape or form, to me, helps a given'situation that, happens within. the City of West Covina. .We are now saying then, if- I understand the remarks correctly, .- .if the complaintant doesn't seek any further action the Commission _shouldn't seek any further action, and I don't feel this way. I feel if we have a .problem in our City and someone is injured that the Human Relations. Commission in some manner, shape or form, if not the City Council, should seek some. solution to the problem and not let it go off by -itself saying we have heard the case and Let's forget about it now. I think -it is the obligation of this City Council, if they'are to stay on top of this situation and back up the Human- Relations Commission, that wherein and whereas the Commission beyond a shadow of. -a nd nd on.the advice of the -City Attorney feel that a complaint is in order that at: such time a report should be given to the City Council and this City Council should then make a recommendation or take on further procedure, because ot:herw.ise ,let's just .say that, our Human ,.Relations Commission is a sounding board and nothing_ more and. I am not in favor of this. I feel that if they are going to be a sou.ndin.g. board and there lis a definite infraction then think At .is up to the City Council to take some action or give them the power., to do something. Councilman Nichols: I couldn't diA.a,gree more with Councilman. Gleckman than'I do. .I„am.absolutely opposed to that concept. I don't feel that the'Cit.y of West Covina should place itself in the position v*here it becomes, the procedure or the seeker of • complaints under -law against the citizens of this community where city ordinances and city laws are not allowed, unless a citizen of -the Community has been affronted and is willing to -seek --a complaint,, Unless I misunderstand you? Councilman Gleckmano You. do. Councilman .Nichols o I gather you said that whether or not a citizen is Willing to seek a complaint the matter should come 25 - ADJ. . C o . C o 7/5/66 Page- T vve my -Six �OiNT MEETING WITH HZTMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION -_Continued before the City Council and the City Council on the advice of the City. At, torney believes that some law has been vilolated that this City should - m and that -is where I don't agree •with you. . If I have read you wrong I would like to get clarification. Councilman Gleckmano :My feeling is if a complaint comes to the Human 'Relations Commission it should be at the discretion of the Human Relations -Commiission upon advice of the City Attorney,, as to whether an infraction has -taken place and at that time a report should be given to'the City Council. and if at that time we can help the complain.tant: seek a cornplaint, .I feel we'shoul,d do so. Councilman Gillum- You, mentioned earlier.in your remarks about the Council in the past: and. certain individuals not whole heartedly..sup porting it.. I will have to admit thatwhen Council proposed thisA' was the•.first to say - what are you trying to do to our City and I find that it has been a worthwhile factor and that we are ahead of many: -Cities in this area. This is something I feel that many communities feel they can, stick their head in the sand and it will go away,,,but:- it will not. I agree with�.Mr. Gleckman .on most of these things, ; but 1: cannot make ,u.p ,my mind at- thi.s ,time , if as a Council;, we can make up our minds to go .before a .Cou.rt, but I do believe we have to at this time make'every effort to, support this Commission and realize that by sticking our head in the _sa.nd these problems are .not going away, they are going to get increasingly more difficult and more of them. . I think we should make every effort to find the routes to keep these things from becoming very • explosive. Councilman Nichols. I think -under, the approach.we are, -talking about here, we are creating a situation. o 0 0 0 ..if this is what you believe in, but it is not as I see it. The Federal Government has created a program, whereby people who feel they have -been affronted under the law may get free legal, service and therefore achieve the great power of the Federal Government to bring suits against- individuals and those individuals at their expense must defend themselves against., certain charges made. When'we create situations where-Mro. Jones feels he has been affronted someway under the law in human, relations area and comes to the City and utilizes the services of the City Attorney and the city staff in making reports, etc. , or attempt to inform him that what: has been a probable violation of the law in some manner-, we -are pr.ovidi,n.g that man with free -legal. service. .If he comes before the Commission and the Commission looks into and tries to ameliorate the problem and the Commission itself'has-a questinn as to whether it is a possible violation of law and they do get' that opinion. from the, City. Attorney , I see nothing wrong in saying to the individual' that we have dete.r-mined through our attorney or legal advice that this is probably a problem for you. to take to the District Attorney. Once we do that I think -that .individual, citizen is going to have •to accept that responsibility. .If he is not going to accept his: responsibility and isn't willing to go to the District Attorney and present his case and if. he then expects the . City to pick up the bill and make -the complaint, I just can't go that. Councilman; Snyder-. I think we are getting away from the point. These complaints are all or should be related only -to human relations and laws within their province o . The complaint is not always an obvious violation of the law when 4t is brought in and even if it .is, the Human Relations Commission. first job is to see if something can be corrected before it goes to legal authority. This :is what they have done and this is where they become particul.ar.ly frustrated and the complaintant feels they 26 ADJ., Co C. 7/5/66 Page Twenty -Seven JOINT 'MEETINGWITH HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION Continued haven't accomplished 5omet:hing. But in actual fact they have accomplished some- .thing. Their first duty is to prevent: this sort: of strife and beyond that, then the . complaints, and if these complaints are not usually individuals and if they are it is the sort of complaint that affects the •whole community eventually, and then really I feel we should advise the Human Relations Commission their only recourse is to take,it to the proper authority, the District Attorney, to determine,if there is a cause. .I don't think in effect if they were to give this information, and Mr..Krieger as an attorney tell me if I am wrong, theCity would be entering the_case •on,a certain side. We really don't have even at that point enough information. Councilman Gleckman, My whole intent was not the "individual case I am speaking of where a complaint comes to the Commission and that .is where it is at the discretion of the Human Relations Commission that it may affect a whole neighborhood. and it has in some of the -instances -of the Commission - but my point is where does the Human Relations Commission want help from the City Council,, where does the Human Relations Commission feel that the Council can best. help them in carrying out what they may feel as their particular, part in t:hi:s :whole program.- Maybe their impression is as :I stated. previously, and this, i.s the type of action they,are seeking from us, maybe they are not., Somebody is going to have to bring • this Council. up-to-date as to just what does the .Human Relations Commission seek from this Council and where, if anyplace, have we,failed them? That -I would like to ask'Mro. Shrader. Mr. o Shrader. o I don't think the City Council has failed the Commission • at all - ever. We did, as,Mayor Krieger pointed out:, we had -one disagreement, if you. want to call it that, but I didn't consider it a di.sagree- -men:t, it was a point of philosophy. It has never been implied that this Commission wants more police power, that is the lase thing they want. In fact they want a mini- m -um- of -power, but they want more flexibility in which to operate to best meet the needs of'the community, for example, We have had for almost 2 years now- these problerrrs , This,�whole business of human relations no one has the answer, we have learn.:ed=a�.-.lort :.and• have a lot to learn. .We have worked for 2 years now on two specific .areas �i.n the City of West Covina, which in my opinion should not be as they are.,so. constituted. .We have endeavored to seek a cooperative effort by all parties involved or by all peoples involved to work towards an amicable solution to the betterment. of the whole community. As mentioned in my letter', it is the Chairman's un.q•ualified opinion, after listening to 2 years of evidence, if we are that type of body, that the people that: came before us with their grievances in my opinion were uncontrived grievances. .In reference to Councilman .Nichols concerning. specifics, I.would like to advise and all members of: the Council, that the whole area of human relations is a matter of non -specifics. .It .is difficult to pinpointi.t but it is not difficult to see what is going on.because of the so-called specifics. Concerning what we could do with this compai.nt: I did reinvestigate further. The F . E . P. C . has a .division of: Housing and they would handle it, through the City Council.. I would say to you that we have not been let. down by the Council, but I say to you that it is now time for the Council and Commission to face the fact that we have reached a cross- road and it is time for a decision. We have tried everything under the,limitations of • the Resolution to ameliorate the problems these people have presented o We have tried to be sincere and professional but: in my opinion we have achieved little for the benefit of those people and the whole community. You have -seen the fruits of lack of cooperation. We have tried everything under the limits you have given us. . Now where do we go from here? I think the most important. statement in my letter to you is that I don't feel a group of realtors should have the sole power of forming our City. .I think that falls to the City Fathers and the total city. You have to make a .decision, whether you wish to make it or not, the situation,is here and it is going to get worse unless we make a decision as to which road we are going to travel. -27m A;D;J. Co C 7/5/66 Page Twenty -Eight .JOINT MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COM o - Continued Mayor Krieger. Mr. - S.hrader are you suggesting to us either in your, letter or in your oral. presentation - in simple .language amplification of the • Resolution itself or are you projecting it beyond that to say that the Human Relations Commission in its functions has performed the responsibili- ties that .the City Council has mandated and we feel that within our abilities We have ,performed those services well and are not asking for further powers to perform further services that it is now a matter of policy, not Resolution: but: a matter of policy - city®wi de policy that is only in the province of the City Council? Mr.- S.hrader, o That is exactly what I implied in my letter,, Mr.. Mayor. , I want to allay any feelings that- Councilman. Nichols has about granting an additional power. I agree with him,. But when we have gone as far as we can go and we- still see situations in the Community that is not good for the community then someone else has to take it up and that someone else is the City Council. Councilman Nichols- The statement is still made in the communication that both the original Resolution has proven to be too restrictive for, positive action to the benefit of the total city and if there are any areas I .hope that the Human Relations Commission will pull that Resolution out and if there..are areas in it that should be changed in the opinion of the Human: Relations Commission I would like to see personally that recommendation come in writing to the Council because �it that point only Council, can discuss and can make any • changes. Mr-% Shra.dero Mr -Overholt put his finger on communications, . maybe I am not communicating. I. am not suggesting to you that there is anything really wrong with the intent of the Resolution, What I am suggesting to you i.s the abilities you. gave us to operate under, have been exercised- but the problems confronting the City have not been ameliorated. That's what .i.mean -by "too restrictive", we can't go any further. We admit this, so I think it is back, in the Cou.nci.l's hands Counci-Im.an:'Snyder.- This is where you need to be specific. .In fact in one -area two years ago when formed there was 18% of the minority group in this area; and today -it is closer to 40%, which means that. one of the problems the Commission was created to help solve the formation of. a- ghetto, has not been solved. In fact the situation has grown worse,. both against the wishes of the people within the area and if informed I am sure of the 'forces of the people •within the community. Why has this happened? Is it because of a lack of communication -or what, and is it possible to reverse this? I honestly want to say we have had little cooperation, from the press, in fact we have had a blackout on this subject. Mrs a . Manse.11: I: have remained silent up to this point for fear of disagreeing wk th anyone. . I .have read the - Chairman's report and -I would • be apprehensive to form an official policy of the City regard- ing housing. I disagree with the fact -that a builder should not be the only one to control the make up of the community, ..1. think each homeowner controls the responsibility of protecting his rights. .Mr.- Shrader made the statement of communityeducation is needed, I think this is a two-way street , The problem is not just the whi.te person against the•negroo I think we have to educate the negro and clean .up the ghetto. . If this is possible. I don't know how you go about it but I went over, to the Prancisquito-Azusa area and .it is deplorable, . Probably the Commission could broaden itself to work in the Community rather than just sit and wait: for, them to come to you o 0 0 . o o . o . or am I speaking ignorantly? 28- ADJ. Co Co 7/5/66 Page Twenty ­Nine C7 0 • JOINT 'MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COM a - Contin ued Mayor Krieger. It is your responsibility as a Commissioner to speak out. Councilman Snyder-, Do you have the minutes over the last 6 months? Mrs. . Mansell: Yes I have read them. Councilman, Snyder. Well we didn't have a ghetto 2 years ago. We have not got one yet, but the situation is getting worse. Mrs.. Mansell. Well I feel. you. -should grab it. Councilman. Snyder. As stated earlier this is the big problem. . To be specific there i.s no doubt in my mind and there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to support it that there is a known -,conspiracy on the part of realtors to gpide minority groups to certain areas to -buy. I don't have the slightest doubt that this :exists and I think this is what Mr.. Shrader was referring to, that the realtor should not have the .right to determine the make up of the community. Mrs. .Mansell. He is dictated to by.his customers and there ,is a reason why a Large percentage -of our people feel this -way especially in looking over the Franci.squ.ito, ;Azdsa area. This is your first potential ghetto area. .I think .we have to work with the negro •people as well as educate the whites. I think the whole thing is inevitable we can't let them push in without earning their place Councilman Snyder. The •minutes .don't reveal this, of course, because the minutes don't reveal the color of the rspea"ker, but actually the negr•oes have been the spearhead in this area, Mayor Krieger. Our National Magazines on numerous occasions have run. series on this subject. .I am particularly thinking of the, Saturday. Evening Post and what struck me so much about the,situations they found and the remedies that came about -were. by .community action, not the action of the specific political or governmental body within the community. I believe the political or, governmental body. within the community illustrated their awareness and interest and concern for the problem but they dial not legislate the problem because you don't legislate this problem, but what ultimately happened within those study communities :was the cohesion of the people within the area themselves. .. Their awareness of it and their staunch resistance to things like blockbu.sti.ng o . If we are talking about specifics of block - busting, what really broke the blockbusters was doors slammed in their face by the people in the area that came to the door with felicitations to sell out before your property values depreciate. That is what broke the back of these people. What bothers me about our accomplishments are effectiveness;in this area,,is what do we legislate,do do we legislate a moral. climate? Do we legislate a backbone into these people in these problem areas? How better- can we illustrate oLr, interest and our concern and our daily attention to this matter but by the'actions that we have taken in the past: o We can tell people what they can do and what they can't do only within a certain narrow confine. We are a creature of, State Laws which set 'up the powers of the -City Council and the Human Relations Ccxrimission in turn is also a creature of laws, a law that we create. We can only constitute certain powers and the powers that we can create .for them are certainly no greater, no more -extensive than the State Laws have created for us _. 29 "Afro . Co Co 7/5/66 'Page Thirty HUMAN RELATIONS COMMISSION TOINT MEETING - Continued Councilman Snyder. Again we are getting away from the point. I would be the first to agree that we can not legislate. It was not ever in my concept of the Human Relations Commission in forming. But we as a City Council can give per se to this Human Relations Commission, hopefully, where we can break the blackout and the blackout of ' the information of the con'spi:racy is -what is causing the situations. We can be talking about it here and the Human Relations Commission - we can get all. the situations out in the open and evaluated by the public just because they have been said and I agree it should be the people that this springs from and it has been in this City. Before the official Human Relations Commission there was the West. Covina,Human Relations Council,, actually they were the fathers in some respects of this. Commission. I think there is plenty of evidence in this particular area that the Commissi.on.has tried everyway in their own individual powers to ameliorate the situation but they have°been frustrated at a certain point, both by blackout of information and inability to engage in dialogue. Councilman, Ni.chols. You are right Councilman. Snyder. This recommendation on Page 4 to revise a program of community education both by public relations and telling the story in papers, and I think Item 3 adoption of, an official city policy , in effect it is the policy of this City, it is already _a law under, the Constitution. But I think i.t: can be amplified that we are • against in effect discrimination in the selling of houses and the buying of houses; .anal we are against placing certain minority groups in Section A of the City. Again I say-it-1 publicly and openly, I think the evidence is there that the realtors have a conspiracy to sell to Negroes only in one or two sections of this City. I think if you look at the evidence of: this Commission in the last two years there can be thesl ightestdoubt: of this Mayor Krieger. There is something romantic in the charge of the light brigade but I am not sure it accomplishes anything except another, devastation of the goal you are setting out to achieve. Councilman Snyder. You are losing the other way, they have gone from 18% to 40% Mayor Krieger. It is the function of the Human -Relations Commission to come to us with specifics, as to what they want to have the power to do or what they want this Council to officially do. I am frankly a little hard pressed in reviewing your memorandum -here to -get the crux of what it is you want either the Human .Relations Commission to be. empowered to do or what you want the City, Council to do except to subscribe as to what is a matter of law, Mr. �Shrader. It is neither; what.I am suggesting here, what:I believe is right. . Answering the lady's comments about: Negroes, . I will say for the record,. I think she has more or less misconceptions and has to be enlightened about the total facts. What- I am saying Mayor Krieger is this, we. the designated leaders of West. Covina and we, as your appointed representatives,. have reached a point that' l mentioned earlier. •A decision has to be made if we intend to have the best interests of the Community in mind in the future. We know that by operating under existing structures there are certain detrimental areas developing within the City of West ® 30 ADJ. C. C 7%5%66 Page ,Thirty -,One JOINT'MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COM. ®.Continued Covina . These do not have Negro impetus, these complaints. - As I mentioned -in ^my memorandum most of the people complaining are of the caucasian race. I would like to dispel the idea that the Human Relations Commission As out to push for the 'Negro, we are out to push for all citizens. . My feeling, if I can say in just a few words, is this ® operating the way -we have, we have not been able to solve or ameliorate the situations whichI think will. become cancerous if it is allowed to continue the way- i.t Is. - So therefore, since we cannot go any- further I think .it -behooves all of us to do something for the benefit of the .City so this particular situation does not continue. This statement, I mean of bringing. people in to one :area,. conspiratorial effort, or what have you, nevertheless, something bad is going on and -.I think within the role that.I am now, my only attempt is to acquaint you with 'what I thinkis going on and I am pretty sure it is, and for the City Council to react to it and stop the best way they can Mayor Krieger. Do more than that... Suggest what it is that the, Human Relations Commission or you, as Chairman in your experience, suggest to the Council what the Council can do to accomplish what we set out, to accomplish. Mr. • Shrader. The intent of the original Resolution establishing the Resolution, Ilhink this Council seta precedent. . It started a new thinking in the City of West Covina. Councilman Gillum admitted that he had doubts when the • Human Relations- Commission • was first suggested, but they have now changed; Councilman Gleckman stated the ...area of human relations is going to be one of the biggest things in the world as far as City Government goes. • So therefore,. my only feeling is that we are frustrated `now., we are not seeking power for the Commission but I want you to study the findings we have made and for the benefit of the citizens we represent enrich this moral point we started 2 years ago by letting all the people know that we do not approve, that we have backing against this particular situation, encourage this -moral climate by letting all the people know that we do not back the practices which are going on. -.-..-Mayor Krieger. What do we do? We have a:Planning Commission, Personnel. Board, Recreation & Park Commission and Human Relations Commission m they have one thing in :common, they are advisory to the Council f but: when they send us a problem they. send us a complete report and come up with one solution or more, then we weigh the alternatives Mr. Shrader. On Page 4 of: my memorandum, and thisI must say is not the total Commission's viewpoint, this is Fred Shrader - I suggest t.o you that; since the .Commission has not: been able to get all the parties involved to participate to bring the situation to an amicable solution, that we let all these people know that we as city representatives are for equitable dispersion in fair housing. . There is a law - we have the Civil Rights Act, the Unruh Bill, ® but laws alone will not do dt. . I think not. only in operating under law, we must operate under morality. Mayor Krieger. I am taking your suggestion .now and applying it to your facts your evidence from these .minutes, not just this group but going back. .I want to know, assuming the council were to establish a policy enunciating in some type of verbage, what do you do with it. then? Do you take it to the Covina.Realty Board and say now we wantyou to disseminate this among your prospective purchasers, 31 ADD Co C. 7/5/66 Page Thirty-two OINT MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COM o Continued vfhen they wouldn't take the yellow sheet , as I understand it. . Mr: - Shrader- Mr -Mayor, and -I say this with. humility and respect, that is exactly what you should do.. There are precedents set in other communities throughout the:Nation, Skokie, Illinois for one,. did exactly as you suggested. They took .it to the Realty Board and also they met with the Village Trustees, jointly, and the Realty Boards -in the ,,area, they used their prestige - the Village •Trustees - worked cooperatively, and we suggested that approach here. . In other words add impetus to --the desire of the leaders of the Community to develop a plan Councilman, Snyder- In effect aren't you saying if the council adds its prestige to the Commissions findings, which is in effect that it is a quasi -conspiracy to direct minority groups to a certain area and we as the Council condemn this practice, or support the policy of Fair Housing. All we are doing is adding our prestige to ..... Mayor- Krieger- But let's follow that out and this isn't meant. in any form of undermining Mr.. Shrader.'s presenta- tion to us, but 1: fail to find .in the Human -Relations, Commission minutes such a determination Councilman Snyder. All you have to do is look at the Housing. Pact o .. . • Mayor Krieger- I am not going to look at the evidence, I am going to look .at the findings of the Human Relations Commission as our, advisory group, is there some- where •in the Minutes that I have missed Mr.. Shrader- This is presented to you in the Annual Report right now as,a summation. This is the opinion of the Commission from the Chairman's point of view, as a suggestion to you considering the problems confronted. Mayor Krieger- You were talking about the'Annual Report - the memorandum of July 5th? I thought we received it last. Monday night Mr. Shrader.- This is an adjunct to that, M .yor Krieger. Was there a statement in, that -report that contained the findings of the Human,. Relations Commission? Mr . • Shrader- Yes. Mayor. Krieger- Perhaps somebody can direct -my direction to it. • Mr. Shrader- This is verbal Mr., Mayor' Mayor Krieger- I am asking for some documentation in the Minutes of the meet.in a of the .Human Relations Commission, the same as we made. - 32 - ADJ. C. . Co 7/5/66 Page Thirty-three OINT''MEETINC WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COM. - Continued Mr.- Shrader: The last full meeting I attended had some very specific findings. . Mr. Seem and Mr.. Solder • and -myself., had some definite conclusions on that in, our Minutes. Mayor Kriegere Are you talking Mr.. Shrader, about a formal action of the Commission along this line or are you talking about each commissioner voicing during the course of the discussion his particular feeling on the situation? 'Mr.. Shrader.. Right - the latter rather, than the former. 'Mayor -Krieger- This is what bothers me. Mr-fol. Shrader.-- I think it is well taken .Mr.. Mayor, because we too are stuck for rules and procedures. In the 2 years they, left it up to the Commission to make a report. Didn't say what kind of a report - just a report. .I suppose it will have to be suggest- ed to the Commission that it -be a final written report with everyone signing it. Mayor Krieger: The advantage of what:I am suggesting to you,Mr. Shrader is the laboring of the wording of what a majority can subscribe to as their conclusion . I really think this is what we are lacking in .thisregard, is what the actual majority can subscribe to based on their. findings -, based upon their evaluation of what has icome before them. Mr.. Shrader- In a formal report, . I would not subscribe to that being in the minutes, If there is any doubt in the majority of the Commissioners feelings ... o . Mayor Krieger- i think you can find a certain trend but sometimes the proof is in the ,pudding when somebody says "I mean that we find as follows" then you become very attuned to the subject of wording and what the majorit:y'of the commissioners can subscribe to as their evaluation of conclusive findings. Mr.. Shrader- We are at: a disadvantage tonight. . The two members of the..Commission who could subscribe to this ; would give you exactly what you are asking, are not: present: at this Jointl Meeting,. but I- dare not say for them. .All I am asking tonight is that you give serious consideration as to where we go from here. I can get you that type of a report,.. Councilman Snyder: I think we need it for an official motion to act upon. Mayor Krieger- This is the normal, procedure we act with on Comml ssions. and Boards and I think the Human Relat.ions.Commission should subscribe to m - that is the formal action. . This is something that I believe Mrs.., Mansell and Mr; .Over- holt should concern themselves with and be„parties too. . Even though they have not sat in onthe meetings the _minutes are available to them and I believe, necessarily, they are going to have to make themselves acquainted with what has happened during the 2 years of the Commission. This is a responsibility that all new councilmen have ®33G • ADJ. . C. C. 7/5%66 Page Thirty -Four O.I INT MEETING WITH HUMAN RELATIONS COM. - Continued when -:matters come before us that they have not sat in on - they make themselves acquainted with the subject. Counci ;ma.n .Nichols: I think:_Mr... Mayor, you have hit on the crux of this entire matter. When the one matter came up previous- ly~before the Council you got an answer from the Council. _ It might not have been what you'°were seeking but the. Council took action and responded and if at anytime the Commission comes up with a.finding in the area of their, endeavors and decides to make,a recommendation to the Council that recommendation should be made formally to the Council.. . This Council, . I am sure, , will give an answer, either that we feel -we .shouldn't do anything, but you will have concluded your function relative to that problem°and-you will have passed it on to the level of jurisdiction which in right, by law; exceeds your own. Then .A:the answef -is not provided and the problem is not solved,, -you have:done all humanly possible, but until the problem has come up•with specific recommendations, . directions, etc. , in terms of a request to the Council, the Council is in no position to cogitate as to what_ should be done.. Councilman. Snyder: You could have the Commission adopt this report as a.majority or adopt a finding that if there is a.quasi- conspir.atorial efforts to deny universalacquisition to property based on all the events you reviewed over the last 2 years - and present that to the Council with a recommendation on what we can do. ,r Mayor:. Krieger-, And based upon the foregoing conclusion we • recommend as follows o This is where the buck stops, gentlemen, we can't pass it on to anybody .and we don'.t. ask to pass it on, but to pass on what you ask us to passon, we want to know what you find and what you recommend. Council-ma-n Snyder° You must remember that the other Commissions, particularly Planning and Personnel have,a Personal Staff to recommend to them and the Human Relations Commission has been operating as a new Commission,. mostly dealing with -people -instead of the Council, and trying to avoid involving the Council with the problems. Perhaps this is :why. Mayor. Krieger: We recognize this is growing pains it is not criticism, Mr... Shradero I think the whole discussion implies that the whole area of: Human. Relations is more complex than Personnel. Councilman Gleckman. I think the task. Chairman'.Shrader has is -much greater than any of the other Commis lions, . as far as to request what he is specifically seeking because if he knew specifically what he is seeking he would have .made his . recommendation to the Council probably a long time ago. And I think this Council is`.seeing tonight what can be accomplished from a little ingenuity and effort taken byone of our. appointees,. such as Mr. . Shrader, and I think he has done an excel !lent joband, because of the difficult area they are operating in and only because of this do we.not .have before -us this evening what we would all like to see but none of us have the answer for. -34- -t ADJ. C. C. 7/5/66 Page Thirty -Five JOINT MEETING HUMAN RELATIONS COM. - Continued Councilman: Nichols : . o ..... This meeting is well worthwhile there are times during the year when we have to sit down and talk about these things. I hope it has been fruitful. I hope that in your Commission activities during this coming year that you can move ahead in this area. The Committee as a whole will feel the constructiveness of this area. Councilman Snyder - Perhaps it is the Council representatives fault that.... Mayor- Krieger- I want to make one additiional comment in this regard and that would be that the Human Relations Commission at its next meeting, or at a meeting, would formulate this.- matter and get to the Council its request and if you decide a further meeting with this Council please feel. free, as all our, other Commissions, to request such a joint, meeting. I regret that this meeting was not attended by the Commissi,on.in full. If you feel it can be. handled alone with the background you have had from this joint meeting, let it go at that. Mr; S.htaden7' - May, I ask the Mayor° s opinion? Do you. have a feeling about the sensitivity of the whole area, that maybe we should have a joint meeting? Mayor Krieger: I am somewhat disappointed by the absence of two of your Commissioners. .If another meeting is desired by the Commission, I would hope they would be in attendance, and I am sure • it would bewelcome by this Council, but we would want the full participation of the Commission at that meeting. -So the time of the ,Council can be conserved as regards one subject matter in view of the fact that there are a lot of subject matters we have to consider. Anything further on this Agenda item? Mr.kias.sa, City Manager: There is a provision put in your Ordinance (Read from Resolution) This is where you can actually. file reports with the Council and where you want to state your specifi cs from your meetings. (Discussion regarding the'Annual report, and the fact that they have been receiving more than one report, etc.) Councilman Gleckman- Mr.. Mayor, I would like to have some thought given to the idea of what meeting we could schedule in -August or September for the Pickering Tract, because there wi 11 have to be public notices, etc. , mailed out. Mayor Krieger- I believe we discussed the advisability of having an -adjourned rather than a regular meeting. There is no question about the notices, the question.is about the dates. .(Discussion) Councilman Gleckman then moved for adjournment. Seconded by Councilman Gillum. All in .favor. , Adjourned at 11: 05 p.m. APPROVED T v� % Mayor ATTEST: City Clerk -35-