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06-06-1966 - Regular Meeting - Minutesa 0 0 MINUTES OF THE ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL AND JOINT MEETING WITH PLANNING COMMISSION ON GENERAL PLAN CITY OF WEST COVINA, CALIFORNIA June 6, 1966 The adjourned regular meeting of the City Council was called to order by Mayor Krieger at 7:30 P.M. in the West Covina City Hall. Councilman Gillum led the Pledge of Allegiance. ROLL f AT,T. Present: Mayor Krieger, Councilmen Gillum, Nichols, Snyder (from 7:45 P.M.), Gleckman Chairman McCann, Commissioners Travis (from 7:40 P.M.), Mottinger, Jackson Others Present: Mr. George Aiassa, City Manager Mrs. Lela Preston, Deputy City Clerk Mr. Herman R. Fast, Public Services Director (from 9:40 P.M.) Mr. Harold Joseph, Planning Director Mr. Norman Yoshihara, Planning Assistant Absent: Mr. Robert Flotten, City Clerk Mr. Harry C. Williams, City Attorney Commissioner Adams RESOLUTION NO. 3380 ADOPTED Mayor Krieger: The Deputy City Clerk presented: "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF WEST COVINA EXPRESSING ITS APPRECIATION FOR THE SERVICES OF MARCELLA MORRISON AND EXPRESSING SYMPATHY TO HER FAMILY ON HER UNTIMELY PASSING" Hearing no objections, we will waive further reading of the body of the resolution. Motion by Councilman Gleckman, seconded by Councilman Gillum, that said resolution be adopted. Motion passed on roll call as follows: Ayes: Councilmen Gillum, Nichols, Gleckman, Mayor Krieger Noes: None Absent: Councilman Snyder Said resolution was given No. 3380. RESOLUTION NO. 3381 ADOPTED Mayor Krieger: The Deputy City Clerk presented: "A RESOLUTION OF THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF WEST COVINA APPOINTING ROBERT JACKSON TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION" Hearing no objections, we will waive further reading of the body of the resolution. -1- Co C, 6/6/66 Page Two 'RESOLUTION NO, 3381 Continued . Motion by Councilman Gleckman, seconded by Councilman Gillum, that said resolution be adopted, Motion passed on roll call as follows-, • Ayes, Councilmen Gillum, Nichols, Gleckman, Mayor Krieger Noes. None Absent, Councilman Snyder Said resolution was given No, 3381, VALENCIA WATER PROPERTY TRANSFER Mayor Krieger. This matter has been discussed with the City Attorney before the preparation of the report regarding this, Motion by Councilman Gleckman, seconded by Councilman Gillum, and carried, that the City Council authorize the City Attorney to negotiate with the Valencia Dater Company on the basis of Proposal No, 2 set forth in the report of June 1, 19660 (Mr,.Travis entered the chambers at 7040 P,M,) 'ALSiCOTCOMMUNICATION Mayor Krieger. The letter from Alscot Development Company has been circulated among the Council, Motion -by Councilman Gleckman, seconded by Councilman Gillum, and carried, that said communication be received and placed on file, ' 'CO'UNCIL . REPORTS CENTRAL BUSINESS STUDY Councilman Gillum. I would report on our Blue Ribbon Committee on the Central Business District, The Mayor and I attended a breakfast meeting with the Plaza..merchants which was one of fhe.largest turnouts they had in a good while, (Gave brief summary of this meeting,) • BLUE RIBBON COMMITTEES Mayor Krieger. The response to date to the letters sent out over my signature is a total of 364 responses, There have been affirmative responses to each of the fourteen committees as .first preference, For your informations they are as follows. 31 to Civic Center, 23 to Swimming Pools; 8 to annexations; capital improvement program, 20; General Plan updating, 39; City charter, 10; Huntington Beach Freeway, 34; water resources, 15, recreation and park improvementss 30; -2- • • C,, Co 6/6/66 'BL'UE RIBBON COMMITTEES - Continued Page Three traffic flow and circulation, 22; commercial revitalization, 25; cultural enhancement, 30; vehicle, bicycle and pedestrian safety, 13; City-wide beautification, 29,, (Councilman Snyder entered the chambers at 7:.45 P,,M,,) GENERAL PLAN JOINT STUDY MEETING WITH THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION (Maps were presented and Mr,, Joseph gave a brief summary of this matter,,) Mayor Krieger: The floor is open for comments. Chairman McCann; I was curious to note what sort of an average you took to determine this retardation of advance.planning,, Did you.take today's level of activity? Planning`Director, Mr. Joseph,, Yes,, We judged the work load over the past two and a half years to distribute how much of our time is spent on this very subject,, Councilman Gleckman: Planning Director, Mr,, Joseph: Mr,, Joseph, did you say that under C,,A,,P,, they would not reimburse for staff time? I did not say that,, Under C,,A',,P',, staff time.can be used to defray the City°s one-third expense,, Councilman Snyder: In the ordinance we recently passed requiring adoption of a General Plan plus a review, I believe every year, obviously this will be impractical,, Perhaps to avoid being in violation of the ordinance we should amend that one section,, Planning Director, Mr,, Joseph,, It provides as follows: "E. The Planning Commission shall annually review the new General Plan as adopted and recommend amendments thereto to the City Council in accordance with Article V19 Chapter 3 of the Title 7 of the Government Code,," This means that we would look at this thing after adoption yearly and write progress reports and determine where there should be changes to be made, if any,, Councilman Snyder: It appears to me all the work involved not only in the General Plan but just in reviewing it, I wonder if it would be practical to review and submit a report yearly,, Perhaps that can be taken care of later,, I would like to see the Planning Department and Commission make recommendations regarding this review time,, Councilman Cleckman: Mr,, Joseph, on the $59,000 that you came up with, can you give us a better breakdown as to what you are talking about as far as outside consulting assistance dollarwise? -3- Co C, 6%6166 Page Four GENERAL PLAN JOINT STUDY MEETING Continued Planning Director, Mr, Joseph, This is noted in your report guessing $239000 outside consulting, tonight on Page 6, We are Councilman Nichols.- It seems to me.like this is an extremely involved expensive process to update a general plan, I had somehow in my mind that the City had adopted a general plan several years ago and that the changes since then wouldn't be so extensive, Mayor Krieger, The scope of the problem in'1962 was ten square miles and 50,000 people with a projection of 65,000 people, That has changed, It is stated on Page 3 that by 1965 it is projected the City will be 21 square miles and house 2000000 people, How realistic are those projections? I don't find anything in the report itself as justification to population projections, Planning Director, Mr, Joseph, Last week we sent to you a report we prepared for civil defense that stated very conservatively we would anticipate 1601,000 people by 1985 based on the computations granted at that time, The statement "almost 2009000 people" is a reflection of the continuing •structure of that report or population whereby we insisted in that report thatitwas low, the population estimate, and we used such things as migration, birth/death rates, annexation areas, building of presently vacant land'in the City, building of vacant land in the annexation areas, et cetera, Mayor Krieger, You talk about advance planning as necessarily involving manpower requirements, In going down your list of advanced planning projects aren't many of these items aotually items that will then be specifically studied in the general plan? Planning Director, Mr, Joseph.- None of them will be specifically. studied in the general plan, Mayor Krieger.- If you are going to talk about population explosions in the City of West Covina aren'tyou really going to get into the question of highrise in your general, plan, which is Item No,, 1 on priority? Planning Director, Mr, Joseph.- We are now working on a report separate report to the Planning Common high rise which would be a ission, Mayor Krieger, It would seem to me in going down this advanced planning •project list in items on your general planthat would require a certain amount of overlappings duplication, and consideration in more than one area of interest, You have highrise; you have underground utilities; you have your downtown business area; you might get into your planned development; you certainly would get into yourstreetand avenue orientation as far as consideration is concerned, Planning Director, Mr, Joseph, No, -4- C, C, 6/6/66 Page Five 'GENERAL; PLAN JOINT STUDY MEETING- Continued Councilman Snydero The answer really is thisa Your advanced planning program list involves studies in depth to come up with ordinance recommendations, et cetera, which is not part of a general plan study,, Mayor Krieger,, I think it goes without saying that if these people are going to be spending time in certain of these areas of -interest that certainly they develop more than sufficient information in the same areas as concerns the general plan, we talk about the general plan being a matter of policy, a matter of general considerations and philosophies as far as the type of city is concerhed, It seems to me that in many of these items that you have on your advanced planning progress list are necessarily going to have to follow the judgment decisions made in the general plan because you are then going to get into specific. implementation of some of these policy considerations and judgments, If we approach this that certain of your manpower in the Planning Department are going to be off in their cubicles developing specifics and some of your personnel are going to be off in their cubicles developing general plan considerations, philosophies, it seems to me that before you get into specifics including some.of the specifics in your advanced planning project list you better make sure that you have your philosophy and judgment people having made their recommenda- tions and having had their recommendations and judgments finally • accepted by the policy making body of this City because it would be a direct reflect on what is going to happen in each one of these specific areas of implementation of the general plan, Councilman Snydero The hearings on the general plan cannot legally be combined with a. hearing on the change of a sign ordinance, An ordinance can grow out of the general plan but the details have to be developed'separately, Councilman Gleckmane Mr, Joseph, if we took this out of the hands of the Planning Department and asked the Planning Department to work with the consultantsg how much time do you feel that our Planning staff would be devoting to working with the outside consultants in order to adopt a general plan? Planning Director, Mr, Joseph- I would say based upon my experience in the 1961 and 1962 area we probably would have to have one man working full time with the consultants on the general plan, Councilman Gleckmano Whether we hire two men for our Planning Department or whether we go to outside consultants it will take so much manhours a day to work on the general plan but this in no way would stop our Department •from functioning in projects they are working on in conjunction with the general plan but would clearly delay some of the conclusions for not being able to spend enough time on certain specific projects without the general plan, Mayor Krieger,, This is exactly what I am talking about; manhours, I don't care how many men the Department has to spend, If we go to the specifics of the general plan scope of work, what do we get involved with? This is why I am asking these questions, If you get into -5- c, c, 6/6/66 Page Six GENERAL PLAN JOINT STUDY MEETING Continued • Subsection V, special studies, you will find certain areas of special study that interrelate and overlap and have a bearing upon the advanced planning project list, When you get into Subsection IX, which is implementation, you get into what Dr, Snyder was speaking of, ordinance amendments,, Councilman Gleckman-, My point, then, in summary is that -is it the opinion of the Planning Department that they hire two men, the equivalent of, let's say, sixteen hours a day to be put into the general plan and that with the help of additional man you will have to put into this in addition to hiring the two men that this would set these particular projects back that long because you are going to be working on a general plan which is going to take'up, according to your workload, sixteen hours per day plus an additional eight hours or are we talking about hiring the two men and having a total of sixteen hours and not the twenty- four hours? If we go to the outside people and use what we presently have, if we then would hire one additional man, you would be at the same level you are right nowo If we would hire one man, none of the projects you are working on would change as far as your workload is concerned if you hire a consultant. Mayor Krieger. Let's go to data gathering. We have spent $25,000 on this data • bank and somewhere along the line this information is in pracess. Doesn't the implementation of that program somewhere benefit us with information that is accumulated and assimilated into the general plan? Planning Director, Mr, Joseph-, In the Real Estate Research Corporation report the answer, I hope, will be "YesP° when we get it, As far as the informatics portion of the contract, that $8,000 roughly had absolutely nothing to do with data gathering. We have received bound volumes which direct us how-to proceed to get this informationcand what to do with it when we get it. That's all. We have a program and now we would like to go into our data bank program with the assimilation of data, Mayor Krieger-, You indicate $23,000 even if it were done in house, This, I assume, the figure $59,000 comes from the two additional personnel added to the staff, Perhaps you can explain to me Xa) and (b), (b) is if one additional person is added to the staff, It is proposed that the position be filled with a Planning Assistant with an average two-year salary of $17,000, If we go to two people, our two-year salary is $36,000, Planning Director, Mr, Joseph-, We are talking about a Planning Associate and a Planning Assistant, • Mayor Krieger-, Let's go to comparison of figures. We have the proposals by outside consultants and they run between $30,000 and $60,000 which excludes the public hearing phase of it, You say if it is done in house, adding two people we still have to go out for $23,000; is that right? Planning Director, Mr, Joseph-, That is correct, C, C, s/s/ss G'ENEML PLAN JOINT STUDY MEETING Continued Page Seven Mayor Krieger, The program that was proposed for $30,000 what were we getting for that amount? It sounds like it's a pretty good bargain,, Planning Director, Mr,, Joseph,, You have to interview the people and decide what you are going to get, Based on the best information we have in our office as we look at these projects and know how long other work has required us to take over the past two and a half years, these figures are not unrealistic,, Councilman Snyder,, Under (d) if you were to add the additional personnel the only outside help would be limited to specific jobs or contracts and not as consultants; is that right? Planning Director, Mr,, Joseph,, The only outside work would be specific project work,, Chairman McCanna per estimate in house,, I t Commissioner Mottingera My feeling would be that this should be done in house,, The speed with which it is done we can make a matter of policy,, I have found that there is so much time lost getting a contractor inon these things, getting them acquainted with what you want them to do, you might as well do it yourself and it is cheaper in the long run,, Our ideas will change as we go along and with a house organization we can alter our course to some extent,, If it is properly supervised we can do the job better here and take care of whet we really need to have done, Commissioner Travis° I have often thought in the past there were certain projects that were often farmed out that the staff probably could have worked on,, This problem posed here this evening indicated by the Planning Director that in -airing out the project it would take an additional two people,, The quarters in the City Planning Department are cramped,, I fail to see where we are going to put these people, It is my feeling that it may not be possible under those circumstances unless we have proper and adequate quarters for them to work from,, Commissioner Jackson,, I don't think we all actually agree on what a general plan is. There is considerable work to be done before you start,, Chairman McCann,, I know that in Southern California everyone has consistently under- estimated the population growth, That is the history of it, Commissioner Jackson; we really want to know what the people in the City wish for the City to be,, That is where your public hearings come in and they are -most-important, -7- C, C, 6/6/66 Page Eight GENERAL PLAN JOINT STUDY MEETING o Continued • Councilman Gleckmana When we talk $59,000 let me understand a few things, When we talk H,H,F°,A, we talk two-thirds, If at such time we feel or you feel or the City Manager or the City Council or the Planning Commission feel that it is of necessity or would be a good idea to bring in some more advisors along the line of this general plan, do we have to give H,H,F°,A, a blank figure for their participation of two-thirds or could this figure be a fluctuating figure with the idea that if we are going to hire two men at a cost of $36,000, for example, and we feel we are only going to get $20,000 of that back that we feel. we could get that much more without costing us anything to bring in the additional necessary help which actually would not cost us any money? Planning Director, Mr, Josephe We would have an estimated work program and estimated cost and we would budget for it. You can always use additional help if you can pay for it, As far as the general plan being a guide, this is true, but you have to have a guide to work with before you can start your work, I think we should start implementing what we are going to do as soon as possible, Councilman'Snydero I think more needs to be said here on what we and the City expect out of the General Plan and what we can hope for, As has been stated • here, it is a guide but I think if we are going to spend this kind of money we want it to be a meaningful guide or a meaningful policy, one in which if we. violate it we only violate for good reason, I think that is where careful preparation and careful development of a general plan will produce such a general plan, I think the general plan is a compromise between perfect planning and what the people want and what you have, Basically we need to set a policy statement for the Planning Department and Planning Commission, something along the community goals that were set up for the old general plan, I think that statement of goals can be improved a great deal, Before we can set up this statement of goals or framework of intentions, we have to have an analysis of the factors involved, The fact that we are the central city of a metropolitan area we are inescapably a metropolitan area where the geographical population center commercial center, plus the fact that the majority of our people dosire to remain::residential, These factors have to be taken into consideration,' I like the ;idea of doing it in house with added personnel and I think again we can't exactly predict now whether we will need outside consultants or not, Mayor Krieger.- Going back if you will remember we had a staff report of April 229 1966 which preceded our first and only joint meeting prior to today on this subject matter, As a result of that joint meeting we directed the staff to go back and present us with more information as to the in- house performance of this work as well as the impact that it would have •upon their regular functions within the Planning Department completely divorced from this aspect, If you remember, the recommendation we had from the staff the last time was that the Council make the decision to retain outside consultants, It was my feeling at that time that this is the first question and it is not a question that the answer is to be assumed but it is a question that the answer is to be con- sidered, With respect to the base study and the line of questioning that I pursued particularly along that Line, I was really talking about this report of the 22nd of April Co Co 6P6/66 Page Nine GENERAL 'PLAN 'JOINT STUDY MEETING- = Continued because in that report is . this sentence that reads-. "As staff has explained before this report has extreme importance with regard to the work to be performed on the general plan,," This is a matter of public record, this report, as the base study will be influential upon our considerations,, I think the prime question before us and one that we should receive a recommendation from the Planning Commission on is still is this a job to be performed in house or out of house? With respect to this matter notwithstanding my line of questioning which was more to invoke information than controversy, I am concerned that we end up with a tailormade project and that the proposals we get as a result of whatever money we expend and whatever time is expended regardless of who expends it is one that is geared and fitted to the needs and requirements and destiny of the City of West Covina,, I find a number of' factors in the retention of outside consultants. Just the time consumption in acquainting them with where we are at, how we got here, and where we want to go, what we have in process, what types of advanced planning we are doing, how this may bear upon this consideration., what the policy of our body is not _-only today but what it has been in the past and what a reasonable projection of it may be in the future not only as formulated by the City Council but as recommended from the Planning Commission to the City Council and this is a very sensitive pulse,, This is not a pulse that is easy for a stranger no matter how expert he is in his academic area to come in and •sense this and,this is one ®f the problems we are going to have and we are going to have it regardless of the competency of the outside con- sultant,, I was looking for a report in this instance which would enable us to evaluate not the nuts and bolts of the operation of the Planning Commission but whether or not it was feasible to pursue aline of inquiry where we would tailormake in house the program and the project and the plan for this City,, I cannot conceive how we can function as a City with delegations of responsibility to staff when we get to something as important and as far reaching in its impact as a general plan will be for the City without having the confidence in the staff to do the work,, If they are not people of capacity to do the big things, and this I consider one of the big things, I would be much less confident of their ability to do the small things and I believe that there is a necessary interrelation here between the small things and the big things as it involves and is reflected in the general plan considerations,, I believe it is perfectly feasible for staff to perform this responsibility in house with tailormade advice and assistance from outside consultants as the project proceeds,, I feel again perhaps the.timing and the momentum of this thing and the amalgamation of the various factors that go into this can be much better controlled if it is performed in house than if it is performed on somebody's charts in an agency far removed - from our City and from our control,, I am also concerned when we retain outside consultants how often the lack of communication and control is apparent as to the performance of precise details and the ultimate responsibility as to the work product that is submitted •to us,, All these factors, I think, have to be taken into considera- tion,, I think there is a great deal that has been accomplished in the past in the field of planning including the general plan that, has been on our books since 1962 which will be a natural point of departure in terms of going forward with this program,, We have %ejected into our consideration tonight which has to do with the funding of this.program and now we have a recommendation from the staff that the Council review the document and understand the implications thereof and then secondly that there should be an exploration of the possibility of having a contract prepared between the City and the H,,H,,F,,A,, for these Federal funds to assist us in the financing of am C,, C,, 6/6/66 Page Ten GENERAL PLAN JOINT STUDY MEETING Continued this program,, I think the financing opportunity is a very serious aspect of this for us but I hope you will understand when I say even more important than that determination is the determination as to whom are we going to initially place the responsibility on come forward with this program and project and it is still my opinion and there is nothing that has been suggested in'this follow-up report from the staff that the ultimate responsibility as well as the initial responsi- bility for the formulation of the proposals for the general plan for public hearing both by the Planning Commission and the City Council ought to be -the direct responsibility of the staff,, Councilman Snyder,, Certainly at any time along the way we find we are not accom- plishing the kind of a general plan we want, one that is really usable, there is still time to hire consultants if we find our staff either by time or capacity unable to handle it,, City Manager, Mr,, Aiassao I think the criteria facing the Commission and the Council is that you do have a general.plan now,, I think the concept is fine but I don't think that is the main thing you will be concerned with,, I think the main thing we are going to be concerned about is what is going to:be good for this City in 19M My staff have capabilities • of doing a lot of work and I think we can do some fine work as far as advanced planning but I would say generally speaking the main thing concerned in this matter is if you are going to spend $50,000 and we are going to utilize this to carry over for another ten, fifteen, twenty years, a lot of these advanced planning projects are stemming off of the general plan being delayed back to 1962,, I think the Planning Commission should look over that priority list and actually determine which of those projects could be delayed or augmented into a general plan program,, Mayor Krieger,, There is a recommendation in the staff report that the Council authorize the City Manager to proceed with the exploration of the possibilities of the funds for this matter,, I would think these matters could go forward concurrently,, Motion by Councilman Snyder, seconded by Councilman Gleckmanq and carried, that the Planning Commission be requested to furnish the Council at the earliest possible moment a recommendation concerning the procedures as to performance of the general plan as discussed this evening,, Motion by Councilman Snyder, seconded by Councilman Gleckman, and carried, that the City Manager be authorized to explore the possibility of' a contract between the City and the H,,HP,,A',, or C,,A',,P',, and report back to the City Council for work on the general pl4nQ • Mayor Kriegera We would like to have this_ information by June 27th,, Notion by Councilman Snyder, seconded by Councilman Gillum, that the Mayor set a Joint meeting between the Planning Commission and the City Council to adopt a statement of policy or framework of our intentions and goals in regard to the general plan similar to the preamble adopted and with the same purpose in mind as adopted in the 1962 general plan,, ft Cv C. 6/6/66 Page Eleven GENERAL PLAN JOINT -STUDY MEETING Continued • Councilman Nichols-, It would be my own feeling that this would involve long detailed discussion and I would much prefer to see a representative of the Council meet with a representative of the Commission and come up with a recommendation for each body to review and discuss, Councilman Snyders I would go along with that. I think it could be done another way, that every member be asked to bring in their own concept of such a statement and they could be jelled or it could be done by a single. representative which would require final approval by the both bodies. Action on Councilman Snyder°s motion-, Motion carried. (Councilman Nichols and Mayor Krieger voted "No".) Councilman Snyder-, WATER STUDY' I would suggest that everybody bring their suggestions into that meeting to save time. • (Mr. Fast entered the chambers at 9-,40 P.M.) Mayor Kriegers (Gave summary of this matter.) We extend our appreciation to Mr. Barton from the firm of Leeds, Hill 6 Jewett for being here this evening to answer our questions. Councilman Nichols-, Was it my understanding when I raised a question some time ago that the purpose of this meeting tonight was strictly for information to the new Councilmen rather than a meeting for presentation of new and additional material to the Council and/or debate concerning the merits of going into or not going into the water business' Mayor Krieger-, On the first item the answer to the question is if any sub - Sequent information was to be presented we felt that by scheduling this matter would be an appropriate time to submit such information without knowing whether there was. The second is as far as a debate, reconsideration or anything else is strictly up to the Council. The primary purpose of this meeting was for information to get acquainted with the subject matter, Councilman Snyder-, Before we get into discussion on this matter I think it should be set in its proper perspective. In the City Council there has been •much misconception of what the goals of' this report were and the philosophy of municipal owned water system. I would like to state here that I was one of the persons who voted to hire Leeds, Hill & Jewett to furnish us with the report regarding the feasibility and by this we meant the economic feasibility of the City acquiring their own water system. When I voted at that time on this report in my own mind the debate on philosophy of a city owning a water system had been settled and this was merely an engineering study to determine the feasibility or economic feasibility or advisability. Since the critics of both this report and the municipally owned water companies have both by editorial means and direct means brought up the fact ®llm Co Co 6/6/66 Page Twelve WATER STUDY ® Continued • that their objections were to the City pursuing this any further was based mainly on philosophy and municipalities getting into the "field of private enterprise", One daily even went so -far as to oppose such an action because they stated that in one municipally owned water system where the people lived outside the City the people had to pay a higher fee for their water than the people in the city which I don't doubt to be true but it seems a rather ludicrous reason to oppose municipal ownership of water companies, I think as far as I am concerned if we are going to resolve one thing we need to depate or discuss philosophy of municipally owned water systems because I think .the report. speaks for itself, The report comes out with con- clusions -which rather strongly indicate that the City can, -that it is feasible both economically and from all standpoints for the City to acquire a municipal water system, There is enough margin between pros and cons to leave no doubt that this could be done and would be advantageous from many standpoint's, Now to get back to the philosophy of a municipal ownership of water systems, I thought that this matter had been settled a long time ago, Some people argue that this borders on socialism for municipalities to enter into private enterprise but I submit that all public utilities in some respects since they are number one they are noncompetitive; they operate under a franchise, they are not in truth private enterprise even though they are owned • by stockholders or privately because they are, by law, restricted from any competition and by law they are regulated as to what they can or cannot do, Privately owned utilities are not full private enterprise, .As far as I am concerned if the. City of West Covina acquires a water system and there are users outside the City they should get breaks in rates also, From everything I can perceive this is where the opposition is coming from and it doesn't make sense to me. As far as the report goes, the report is positive and there is enough margin between the positive and the negative to make it acceptable and the proper thing to do, I might state that there is information that perhaps the staff or Mr. Barton could -'give the two new Councilmen regarding what is the advantage of.municipally owned water company over privately owned from the city and the people's -standpoint. Kr, Albert Barton They are summarized in the report, Vice President There are eight different water Los Angeles Office purveyors in the City of West Leeds,, Hill & Jewett Covina and that naturally leads to some d-ifference of standards of service and standard of water rights and other such things, If a single ownership of these agencies were made these deficiencies could be eliminated, There would be more ,cross -sections between the areas, Another difficulty that a public utility has in expanding its system is that it cannot earn on • a facility which is not providing service so if an area is to get service and it requires a 12®inch line to feed it and yet in the overall picture a 16@inch line should be put in there, the City is in a better position to do that than the privatei.company, The City Water Department is generally more responsive to the City°s needs than are the private companies although dome of the private companies do have a very progressive operation, Finally, the biggest advantage of municipal ownership is from the water rights there are no income taxes payable to the Federal Government, That is one of the primary financial -12- is C C, C, 6/6f66 'WATER STUDY m Continued Page Thirteen advantages of municipal ownership, Secondly, if purchases are made through bonds the bonds can be obtained at lower interest rates than can the private utility because the bonds carry tax-free interest, Councilman Gleckman- In one of the conclusions on Item No, 4 on Section 8- "The water purveyors serving the West Covina area now are providing water service that is generally adequate although some betterments should be made,"' Do you have any particular things in mind in this report that would be classified as A, B9 C', and D as to the "betterments" that should be made? Mr, Albert Barton- The Board of Eire Underwriters made a survey and recommended certain betterments for fire purposes, That is the kind of thing this is referring to, Councilman Gl.eckman- According to the report that I read unless. I misunderstood, with the distribution of these revenue bonds in the manner in which you can buy the water company, I come to the conclusion which is hard for me to understand that we can acquire a water company with no money outlay from the City of West Covina and that is kind of hard for me to digest that we can go into a business without us putting up a dime, Mr, Albert -Barton- That is the case, Others have done this, Councilman Snyder- Except for the cost of the etLwation, Mr, Albert Barton- The funds could be raised by revenue bonds according to our financial advisors, Councilman Gleckman- And the amount of return from the customers could not only pay for the operation of the company but also would retire these revenue bonds without any additional cost to the City? Mr, Albert Barton- Yes, essentially this is true, Councilman Snyder: One of the objections also is that it would raise taxes, Revenue bonds require no raise in taxes. Some of the public is not aware of this fact, Mr, Albert Barton- You are going into a business that has been making a profit and the bonds can be issued and repaid out of that profit that was formerly taking place, Councilman Gleckman- The dollars and cents method, in other words on No, 7 of that same page you say, "Cost of acquisition of existing water systems to serve the study area is estimated to be -between $5 200 000,00 and $59300,O00,00," That is quite a spread, I am curiousasto what factors would determine the three -million difference, _13- • i C, C, 6l6/66 WATER STUDY Continued Mr, Albert Bartone Page Fourteen The public utility is permitted to earn on the basis of historical cost less depreciation so that in a way sets the lower limit under which you would be able to acquire the system because since that is the amount they can earn on, the value presumably cannot be too much higher than that, However, to be on the safe side we also figure reproduction cost less depreciation and study what kind of values have been awarded in prior condemnation cases, Councilman Gleckmano I am rights then, in assuming that just by the City deciding or the Council deciding that they would go in the water business we can ultimately force the people that are now in private enterprise to give up,their holdings and have the City take them over? That is not a nice way to put it but going back to one of the reasons why you say mm Mr, Albert Bartone Of course it is a legal question but the City does have the right of condemnation, Councilman Gleckmano Without the City going into the water business does the City have any type of enforcement whatsoever to seek cooperation from private companies within its city where there are certain noncooperative methods, shall I say, being attributed to the private enterprise system? In other words, the responsibility of this City or any city and its council is to .best serve the citizens of the community and if a particular utility such as a private water company is not serving the citizens in the area in the opinion of the city council, do they have any type'of regulatory power to get these things accomplished? Mr, Albert Bartono That may be a legal question, regulatory powers, however the can I don't believe they have any o Commission to whom the private utilitiesbefore answerhe Public Utilities Councilman Snyders In the matter of fire under- writers and adequate mains for fire protection, can the City require the water company to put in larger mains or looping, et cetera, or how is this accomplished? City Manager, Mr,, Aiassao The water company only provides what is required as far -as size is concerned, We financially participate to provide loop systems, The P,U,C, does not control mutuals and nobody speaks to them except themselves and their board of directors, Councilman Snydero Referring to the statement of •acquiring private enterprise by taking it over, the law requires in condemnation you pay a fair price plus severance, Councilman Gillumo I have read the report, I find no place in this report that it says the City can do a better job than what is being done at the present time, I am not sold on the idea, I don't think the -City should proceed with something this large on one report, Dr, Snyder has covered the philosophy part of it and I don°t want to get into that subject at this time, In my own feelings, at this time after reading this report twice I would be opposed to the City getting into'the water business, @l4m • • C,, C,, 6/6/66 WATER STUDY m Continued Page Fifteen. Mayor Krieger.- Mr,, Barton, the report was submitted to us in June of 1965,, Not necessarily because the consultants have pursued any additional information but has any additional information come to the attention of your firmwhich would cause you to change any of the aspects of this report? Mr,, Albert Barton.- No,, We have worked on another report similar since this one and it came out to about the same answer for another municipality, for the south bay irrigation district,, It was a report for the south bay irrigation district,, The City of National City down hear San Diego em Mayor. Krieger.- Could you give us any idea as to the possible period of time in which this report would continue to be valid as far as information contained therein? Mr,, Albert Barton.- As far as the dollar value, we worked it to the end of 1965 it would take restudy to up -date the report,, However, the conclusions, I am certain, would be'the same,, Mayor Krieger. - Mr,, Albert Barton. - Statistical information actually even as of this date might require some updating? It would depend on how fast the action might be taken,, Councilman Snyder.- An area similar to the area of West Covina recently annexed to the Metropolitan Water District,, This annexation will involve an increase in taxes in the area of some thirty-one cents,, This amount under the present system, does the private water purveyor pay M,,W',,D',, for the water they receive from them and turn around and sell it to the users in. West Covina or do they get it underwater rights? Mr,, Albert Barton° system I�don't believe that any of from Metropolitan,, Councilman Snyder. - There are different ways that can be done. Under the present your companies are taking water At such time as they need to eventually oe Mr,, Albert Barton.- That will depend upon the City because the City is the only •one that can purchase water from Metropolitan,, A private water company cannot,, They will have to.purchase it through the City or through the Upper San Cabirel District,, Councilman Snyder.- They pay a pumpers tax which is essentially the cost of the water they are selling us,, Then they tack on a profit above this? Mr,, Albert Barton.- It becomes one of their expenses and', -when they go to the Public Utilities Commission for a rate increase they will include that as an expense; yes,, C,, C,, ' 6/'6f66 'WATER'STUDY 'Continued Page Sixteen Councilman Snyder, It seems to this is another good argument for a municipally owned- water company; the people are already paying a taxfor the water which is partially paid for by the water company but not in total which is turned around and sold to our people at a profit,, In effect, it is double taxation,, Councilman Gillum° Councilman Snyder, - Councilman Gillume You are saying that the water companies sell the water to home owners, is that correct? They are private enterprise, They hold themselves out to be private enterprise,, I think they sth a service,, Councilman Snyder: It seems to me it is wrong for us to pay for water and give it to the water company and let them sell it back to us,, They don't pay full price for ito It is delivered to them,, They pay pumping charges only,, I think I am correct,, We are paying by tax for something we give them which they turn around and sell to us,, • Mayor Krieger, This was placed on our agenda as a study item. Unless there is a motion that can receive a majority vote it will remain as an item studied without action,, CO'UNC'IL REPORTS CHAMBER OF COMMERCE Councilman Snyder, the budget item,, We will bring that say that I think you will be pleased,, SOUTH HILLS HIGH SCHOOL AWARD Councilman Nichols and I met with the Chamber of Commerce regarding up again during the budget,, I will Mayor, Krieger-, Councilman Gleckman advised me before the meeting this evening that South Hills High School achieved the counterpart in baseball to what West Covina High School did in football,, We adopted a resolution commending the athletic prowess of West Covina High School in the field of football,, It would be my thought it would be appropriate to do the same thing for South Hills High School,, Motion by Councilman Nichols, seconded by Councilman Gleckman, and carried, that the Council direct the City Clerk to prepare an appropriate resolution for presentation to the South Hills High School relative to this outstanding achievement,, ®16® C, C, ' 6P6/66 Page Seventeen 'COUNCIL; REPORTS Continued CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT MEETING Councilman Gillum,, Wednesday night there is a meeting of the Central Business District property owners and the Chairman of the Blue Ribbon Committee at the Chamber,, Things have developed over the weekend that I can't make it. I believe the meeting is at eight o'clock. Mayor Krieger,, We have the annexation report and the budget sessions,, Perhaps you could arrange your schedule so as to take that in and then immediately join us in the budget session, Councilman Gillum: All.right, There being no further business, Motion by Councilman Nichols, seconded by Councilman Gillum, and carried, that this meeting be adjourned at 10020 P,M, to Wednesday, June 8, 1966 at 700 P,M, ATTEST; .............. I................. CITY CLERK C APPROVED MAYOR -17-