Loading...
11-15-1965 - Regular Meeting - Minutes• • CJ MINUTES OF THE REGULAR ADJOURNED MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL CITY OF WEST COVINA, CALIFORNIA NOVEMBER 15, 1965 The regular adjourned meeting of the City Council was called to order by Mayor Nichols at 8:00 P.M. in the West Covina City Hallo Councilman Heath led the Pledge of Allegiance. The invocation was given by Mr. Robert Flotten, City Clerk. ROLL CALL Present:. Mayor Nichols, Councilmen Jett, Krieger, Heath Others Present: Mr. George Aiassa, City Manager Mr, Robert Flotten, City Clerk & Admin. Assistant Mr, Herman R. Fast, Public Services Director Mr, Harold Joseph, Planning Director Mr. Byron Larson, Traffic Engineer Absent: Councilman Snyder Mr, Harry Co. Williams, City Attorney PROJECT TS-6330 Traffic Signal Contract Award Vincent Avenue and North Frontage Road Motion by Councilman Krieger, seconded by Councilman Heath, and carried, that the bid for this project by Steiny and Mitchell be rejected and the project be readvertised in conjunction with future traffic signal projects. FREEWAY EAST HEARING Mayor Nichols: This will be a public hearing to enable anybody present wishing to give testimony -the opportunity to do so. Before opening the hearing to public testimony, the chair wishes to declare the hearing open and to call upon staff for a report which will include the reading of the freeway east staff report. Public Services Director, Mr. Fast: The Traffic Engineer, Mr, Larson, will assist on this display as I go through this report. (Read report re this matter,) Mayor Nichols: Mrs. Margaret Courtney 3104 East Garvey Avenue West Covina At this time we will receive testimony from the audience. I would like to speak in favor of Plan B for Citrus and Barrancao Plan A particularly at Barranca would be very detrimental to the business frontage there -1- 0 n U • C. Co 11/15/65 FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS ® Continued Mrs,, Mary Carico 1014 South Glendora West Covina Page Two I agree with Mrs,, Courtney that Plan B is the best for Citrus and Barranca going east,, Mr,, Hal Marron I listened very closely to the 3142 East Virginia Avenue discussion on these interchanges, I am more concerned precisely now with the Barranca interchange than I am with the others although they naturally reflect back to that,, Plan B. in my estimation, is far superior so I have to agree with the others,, However, an integral part of this system which seems to go hand in hand is the location of the street which is called Walnut Creek Parkway, and the location particularly in the area where it intersects Virginia Avenue appears to me that it should be further north, closer to the freeway,, I am a stockholder in the water company here (indicating) and that would be quite expensive to remove. I can appreciate what they are trying to do in getting the space between the signalized intersection and the main thoroughfare but it appears having gone this far they have dropped a long way back from the wash and I can see no difficulty or really anything adverse in running it further north more parallel to the wash similar to what they have at the Citrus Avenue Interchange,, It would serve the same purpose when we get over to the Grand Avenue Interchange,, .This section through Eastland Shopping Center is probably one of the biggest bottlenecks we have,, I think an off -ramp that dumps right into a shopping center is all well and good;.however, we should take some way of bringing a frontage road through here so we don't have to pass through the shopping center,, I would strongly recommend that this signalized intersection be carried through Eastland so we have a through street with access to the Eastland Shopping Center from that frontage road,, Mr,, Edward LaBerge 2247 East Evergreen West Covina This is not just a plan of Victor years by the staff,, This road was staff,, I am in favor of this. We own three and a half acres right here (indicating) and this proposed Walnut Creek Parkway would open up our property,, Gruen's,, This has been studied for originally contemplated by the Mr,, Melvin Crouse Indeed this Walnut Creek Parkway 321 South Charvers Avenue does open this up to commercial West Covina zoning which you will have in no time,, There will be a strip of commercial zoning along this Parkway south of the freeway,, I don't see how this could be prevented,, Bordering this would inevitably be apartment house zoning extending even further south,into the residential district,, I hope you will consider this and possibly keep this road north of the wash or perhaps you could work out an east/west access as far south as Cameron if traffic has to get through there, but I think this is not a good thing,, You are going to bring commercial zoning into a.residential district,, Mayor Nichols: Would you explain _your thesis that opening this road would bring commercial and apartment zoning? -2- • • Co C, 11/15/65 FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued Mr. Melvin Crouse It seems to a road where only because reasoning, road and to commercial pieces of property border I think it is going to be a service Mr, Walter Fuesler 1920 Serena Drive West Covina a service road where it exists now there should be commercial property Page Three me it is a service me a service road is freeways, It is road, That is my I think that Plan B is far superior, I do not think that Walnut Creek Parkway would be a service road, We already have and I don't see any reason why off of that road, Mr, Charles Cheesebrough It seems to me that in the 3424 East Garvey planning the thought that went West Covina into this map, you might have lost tract of the people that are going to live out to the east of the Holt Interchange, There is a big real estate development going in on the Old Covina Hills Ranch, The property all to the north of the freeway is being developed and it seems to me that if you take that interchange away at Holt that you are denying them the right to be here and speak because they cannot protect their interests at this time because this will take place in the future, It seems to me that with just a little alteration that this plan could be used and the Holt Avenue Interchange would still be in existence, Any on -ramp that you have to get on by a left turn is like some of the present on and off ramps that were designed in the City of West Covina, I don't mean to be facetious, but when you have to turn back and then to the right, I think that is a very poor design, I.t seems to me if this intersection was dropped 20 or 30 feet that this road, the Barranca Intersection, the service road could be brought up and the on -ramp could follow the same contour onto the freeway, It seems to me that would be a lot better design than Plan B, You wouldn't be losing your frontage road; you would eliminate the hairpin turn; you would still have your on -ramp and your interchange at Holt Avenue, I think probably that you will have quite a bit of opposition from the State and from the City of West Covina and probably from Forest Lawn if you try to eliminate this Holt Interchange, I am in favor of a little more study on Plan B of Barranca and combining it with Plan A. Mr, Jack Baker I am a member of the Board of 3049 East Cortez Directors of the Valencia Water West Covina Heights Company, This problem was discussed at our Board meeting last Wednesday, We are concerned with the present location of the pump house and.the reservoir, This would be removed by the proposed Plan B. We also have our main pipe supply corning under the proposed Walnut Creek Parkway extension, I wanted you to be aware of these facts, If you have.any questions I might be able to answer from the water point of view, I will be happy to assist you, 11191M Co Co 11/15/65 FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued Page Four . Mr, Co R. Wilson The first plan of Victor Gruen's 19228 East Cortez as far as we are concerned is very frightening and caused quite a lot of concern down at the shopping center at Citrus and Garvey and I think Plan B is a good job and we would much prefer that. Mr, Irving R, Melbo While I do not live in West 3115 Merrill Drive Covina, I am owner of three Torrance pieces of land that are involved, including some of the commercial center at Garvey and Citrus. We think that Plan B is far superior to Plan A. We would like to reserve some opinion regarding the so-called Walnut Creek Parkway until the location is more definite and determined, Mr, C. M, Brooks 2700 East Garvey West Covina We would like to go on record as stating, that we believe that Plan B would be far more suitable for the interchange area, Mayor Nichols: There being no further public testimony, I declare the public portion of this hearing closed. Does the staff wish to add any • clarifying information that might be of help to the Council relative to the testimony that has been given? Public Services Director, Mr, Fast: I might make some brief comments in regard to further study, We would like to have the time for it, Insofar as the reservoir is concerned, this is for concept only, The actual location of the road is not a portion of this recommendation, Insofar as a physical relocation to the north on Walnut Creek Parkway, a significant re- location to the north, the close proximity of a frontage road and the signals at the frontage road intersection would definitely be a problem so far as interrelation of the two signals are concerned, Councilman Krieger: Has there been any consideration since our joint meeting with the Covina City Council to the point that they raised in the northeast quadrant of Barranca and the frontage road as to access to Montgomery Ward off the frontage road? Public Services Director, Mr. Fast: Councilman Krieger: problem in the northeast quadrant No further consideration, Has there been any staff review of their concern with the same of Citrus? • Public Services Director,.Mr. Fast: We have taken a look at that from the standpoint of total storage and we felt in the event the traffic came to the point of being a problem that signals would be required at that intersection. sM C� C. 11/15/65 Page Five FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued • Councilman Krieger: Looking at the total concept, it seems to me that this Council has to be realistic not just in terms of 1965 but for a long time to come, We are living with the mistakes people made 10 and 15 years ago and I assume if we make a mistake, people 10 and 15 years from now are going to have to live with ito They may not have a second chance as we seem to have with some of the interchanges by virtue of the State widening the freeway, I hope we can keep long range perspective in mind. Although we approach freeway west from the interchanges coming west, it might be more advisable in our considera- tion of freeway east if we approach it from the interchanges coming from the east to the west because intertwined throughout the report of the staff of November 12th is the impact that Plan B is going to have on Holt Avenue and we cannot isolate these interchanges any more than we can isolate West Covina, Our decision on any one, particularly the south, the impetus seems to be on the south Citrus and South Barranca, As you touch it at one end it starts to fall toward the other end and where it seems to fall is Holt Avenue, I think we are going to have to face up to Holt Avenue, Councilman Heath.- What Councilman Krieger just stated, the fact that we are going to have to live with this for quite some time is quite true. I think it behooves us as representing the people of this City to see • that this is done and done right the first time, As he further stated, there may not be a second crack at it. The main problem for inter- changes is to handle traffic. We have to be able to handle this traffic in a manner which makes it easy for the people in our City and the shoppers in our City to get around, They are going to be coming in from other cities into West Covina, coming off the ramps and into our cross streets and in looking at these interchanges, I can't help but think that if we adopt these plans we are going to saddle the people of our community with something that they are going to resent for quite some time, It violates the first principle of handling traffic, The first principle of handling traffic is to never let it stop because the time when you have one car stopped, you are then lousing up your movement and your speedy dissipation of the problem, If you will look at any of these interchanges, the south side of Citrus, for example, where you have a left turn coming off that frontage road into the on -ramp, this is not good. The north side of Citrus you have emptying out into the street and that is a problem and a left turn that has to be made by a number of cars; this is not good, The south side of Barranca has the same condition of a stop or a left turn; this is not good, The north side of Barranca on the off-ramn comes down -to the street of Barranca where you have a traffic light with a left turn, Looking at Grand Avenue, you have more left turns there, more stoppage of traffi.c than any other inter- section. I feel that these plans which we have violate the first principle of handling traffic, • As far as the frontage road is concerned, or service road, I believe that the purpose of a service road is to handle traffic across the City and to keep the short runs off of the freeway. In order to keep short runs off of the freeway, you have to make the service road easily maneuverable. I feel that these plans, here are plans which are far from easy to maneuver. Another thing, this service road is a direct violation of good traffic, running a frontage road through the center of a residential area. This is'poor policy. -5- Ca C, 11/15/65 FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued Page Six • I feel that the Walnut Creek Parkway is a good cross town street but I do not think that that frontage road is going to serve the purpose for which it is intended. At the present time with our service roads the way they are, I dare say that anyone in this room who wants to go from Pacific to Azusa will use the frontage road. They will use the freeway, I feel that that frontage road must be made easier to maneauver and straighter. True, to get this it is going to cost more money. This what we have before us is no doubt the cheapest way out, We are looking for the thing we have to live with for a number of years and I hardly feel that the cheapest way is the best way in the long run. It has been said unless you have something to offer which is better, don't knock it, Well, I am not about to sit up here and try to redesign or design ramps and frontage roads, That is not my profession and I don't intend to do it, but I certainly can tell you by looking at this that I don't think these designs meet the first principles in any way of good traffic handling, I can't help but think that we are not in another predicament that we were in on the Vincent Avenue Interchange, The Vincent Avenue Interchange came before the previous Councils and it was kicked back and forth and finally it got to a point where we had to act. It was stated that we knew it wasn't best but it was all we had at the time and time was short so we had to go ahead, On these interchanges and on these frontage roads we still have time to review this and go back in and do it right, Then let's • not get us backed up to the wall at some later time where we will say, "Well, the time is short, This is all we have, Let's go ahead," If we do, we will have another series of interchanges which I don't think will be an asset to the City. My suggestion is to send this back to the staff or whoever it be for a complete restudy to keep in mind the first principles of traffic handling, and that is to eliminate left turns, keep the traffic moving, and come up with the best maneuverable frontage road regardless of cost and then work back from there, Councilman Jett: There are several points here that I think should be discussed, On Ba.rranca on the northeast quadrant, quite a major change has taken place in this area. I am sure this is going to add considerably to the amount of traffic entering that area, With this in mind, there has been quite a bit of discussion about opening up an area from the north frontage road directly into the parking area for Montgomery Ward, I would presume that it would go to the rear of the new building they have erected, if this took place, Workman Avenue to Montgomery Ward is a very important street. I think it is very important that Workman Avenue be continued because it would open up that entire area back in there, This would help relieve some of the traffic in that area, I would like to see us strongly recommend that Workman Avenue be opened up to Grand, On the southeast quadrant, I think that is a very poor • design, I think that should be redesigned, Perhaps the on -ramp could come right off of Barranca, There are no provisions made for a right hand. turn, There is a lot of vacant property in that area and I think now would be the time for us to get a complete interchange on the south side of the freeway, I am looking at Plan B now, Plan A has only accomplished one thing, You have to make a left turn to the on -ramp the same as you do on Plan B. However, on Plan B you go to the frontage road and then to the on -ramp, (Stepped to board and explained suggested changes,) ME C, C, 11/15/65 FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS m Continued Page Seven With the amount of business that is in and out of Eastland and Montgomery Ward and additional businesses going in in this area, Idon't,think that the projected 6,000 cars in a 24-hour period of time is very realistic for Citrus, I feel we could have a much better treatment of the ramps at Citrus, We would probably lose a few houses but how can you build a freeway without sacrificing some of these things? Grand Avenue is a difficult situation and I think we all realize it because of the topography, I don't know how to solve the problem, I am certainly not satisfied with what has been suggested. However, it may be the best that could be done at this time, They seem to think it would handle the traffic for us, We do know we have a problem there when the theater traffic starts unloading, so this is certainly an indication of what happens at peak load times, Grand Avenue is going to be one of our main intersections, I think that Holt in the very near future, perhaps ten years, with all the homes that are going to be built back on the old Forest Lawn property, the Phillips Ranch on the north side, there are some 1500 acres on the south side to be developed, so with these areas being developed, the amount of traffic that is going to be generated, most of it will be residential, I would hope that we would get something that would get those commutors on and off the freeway as rapidly and conveniently as possible. At the same time provide ingress and egress to the shopping areas in the City of West Covina so that we would attract those people here. I would hope that Holt Avenue would be given a complete interchange along with connecting roads or streets, frontage roads that would service the residential areas to both sides of there, Councilman Krieger: What we have before us are schematics of the Gruen recom- mendations and the recommendations of the staff and the Planning Commission, In some places they agree and in some places they dis- agree. Merely to send it back to them with some mandate to solve our traffic problems suggests that they have not attempted to do just that within the framework of what they can operate with, I don't know of anything in Gruen's consideration which was predicated upon cost, Was this the major criteria in coming up with their recommendation? Public Services Director, Mr, Fast: There was no criteria in regard to cost, Councilman Krieger: Each of us have said in our own words and own way that we are not traffic engineers. I think we can all concede the point, but the traffic engineers have made their recommendation. Sooner or later we are going to have to come down to the problem and make decisions • that are going to hurt certain people because it is impossible to take the system that we have and perpetuate it without hurting people, In terms of Plan B. I am concerned, as I mentioned before, about the impact of that plan on Holt Avenue, My own inclination is not to give up interchanges, It is to take interchanges that we have and do something decent with them to service whatever areas within our territory as well as in neighboring cities. I don't think the other person who goes to. Montgomery Ward knows or cares that it is in the City of Covina, All _7® Co Co 11/15/65 Page Eight FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued • they know is they can or they can°t get to the store, I think it is our obligation in coming up with a program to work into traffic circulation and traffic flow, If there are some beneficiaries of that plan and program outside of the City of West Covina, better luck to them, I hope in their planning they will give as much consideration to our City. When we talk about Holt Avenue, I cannot conceive any justification for abandoning an interchange there. I agree with Councilman Heath as far as the desirability of only right turn movements of traffic, That is a basic concept that the Gruen people try to operate under, too. For some rhyme or reason, which doesn't have to do with cost, they come to us with a plan and program which in instances do not involve right-hand turns, We have criticized South Vincent Avenue Interchange time and time again but South Vincent Interchange as it will finally be imple.mented, forgetting about the frontage road situation, which is an abortion, but talking about the interchange itself, it will allow only right turn movements, If this is our ideal then what we should do is to take the Vincent Avenue Interchange South and superimpose it on each of our intersections, But, this isn't the solution, at least according to the experts, We have to make a compatible system between interchanges and frontage road, The State's primary concern is going to be with interchanges and not frontage roads and that if we come up as pseudo traffic engineers with the ideal system from our standpoint, it may have no salability at all from the State, I don't say this for the sake of saying, "Let's abandon this and leave it all to the State" because if they are going to make their decisions, they will make their decisions on what is good for the State only, Again I go back to the suggestion that we start with Holt Avenue and, in my opinions Holt Avenue is non negotiable and if any plan comes before us that involves the abandonment of Holt Avenue Interchange, I will be against it, Councilman Heath, I will acknowledge the fact that the majority of this work was done by Victor Gruen, which is supposedly an expert outfit, Very unfortunately the quality of a concern is no better than the individual doing the work, It is very hard for me to concede the point that these interchanges could not be designed without left-hand turns, I can't see all the experience that we have in the United States that no one could redesign these things so there won't be a left-hand turn, I think they can be redesigned so there are no left-hand turns, If Victor Gruen can't do it and the staff can't do it, let's get someone else and keep getting others until we find the people who can design them to eliminate the left turns and the bottlenecks, What we accept here is going to saddle this City for a very long time, Let's do it right, If we are going to send it somewhere and Victor Gruen can't do it, let's send it to someone else, Mayor Nichols: Mr, Fast, what says that Holt Avenue would have to be abandoned if Plan B was to be adopted by this City? is Public Services Director, Mr, Fast: Nothing says it would definitely be abandoned, It is a probability only on the basis of Plan B requiring a revision of the Grand quadrants in which the ramps would be located which would push the ramps too close together on the south side of the freeway between Grand and Holt, Mayor Nichols: Who says this? Co Co 11/15/65 'FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued Page Nine Public Services Director, Mr,, Fast- This is based on State standards, minimum distances,, Conversely, S am sure you can find areas where they have eventually accepted something less than that for a certain reason,, Mayor Nichols,, On Plan B, what are the most disadvantageous aspects, for example, the southeast quadrant? -One that has been mentioned is left, left, right motion necessary to get onto the freeway; south Barranca,, Why from an engineering standpoint could not it be parallel with the frontage road in its departure from Barranca Street until such time as it came on from the freeway? Public Services Director, Mr,, Fast- The basic problem would be that the entrance to the on -ramp and the entrance to the frontage road would be very close together from a standpoint of traffic movement and would be hard to control,, More importantly, it is virtually impossible, as I understand it with State provisions now, to locate an on ---ramp where there is a possibility they can have wrong -way traffic,, Mayor Nichols- During the course of discussion the question was raised was cost a factor in these matters and the answer, as I recall, was "No, • cost was not a criteria to the study or the findings thereof" and yet as I recall during all previous discussions here in the Council on the other freeway improvements as proposed, there was a considerable degree of discussion at different times that the State wouldn't buy this, or this would be too costly, or that if we straightened out or went around, left off ramps, et cetera, this would involve money and condemnation of land and that the State might or might not buy it,, Would you care to comment at any greater length that money or cost was of no consequence or no consideration at all to any of these studies? Public Services Director, Mr,, Fast- In regard to Victor Gruen's study, in our agreement there is no instruction given to him in regard to cost,, I am sure in his consideration of various plans of working with the freeway and its interchanges that he undoubtedly took into account what was happening on other freeways, what was being put in either with or without total concurrence and undoubtedly cost entered into his planning and into his final recommendations, but insofar as criteria is concerned or direction from either the City Council or the staff,, nothing at all was mentioned,, Mayor Nichols-, He does relate to the State engineers, the freeway people, as he goes about his work and research work does he not? IS Public Services Director, Mr,, Fast, Certainly,, Mayor Nichols- It seems to me that the City of West Covina has, to use a very simple term, taken one of the biggest rookings of any city that I have ever gone through. We have one of the worse provisions, in my judgement, for getting on and off of freeways and getting around our City as a result of what the State of California built through our community,, When we have come along with these things it seems our emphasis is to try to patch something together that will.create a C,, Co 11/15/65 FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued Page Ten favorable climate in Sacramento, and somehow partially improve our situation and I would like to see really just once West Covina plan something out that was right for West Covina and then I don't care what the cost is, present it to the State of California and let them tell us if they won't build it hereo That is really all I have to say. Councilman Krieger: It is tremendously easy for us to use whipping boys in a situation because that takes the monkey off our back and if they turn us down because the plan just makes no sense at all, that is one thing,, If they turn us down because it doesn't fit in with the system that they are implementing throughout the State of California without favoritism toward West Covina or detriment to the City of West Covina, then I believe that they have justification for their position,, Now, what I don't understand is that after months of this kind of study and this kind of work by supposedly experts we say that this isn't good enough for the City of West Covina; there has to be something better,, I don't know anything that we said to these people in pre- paring their studies that said to cut corners or don't come in with the best thing you can for this City,, Gruen was working for us; they were paid for by us and they were hired by us,, If there was some reason why they did not give us the best, then they should be fired by us, but I have yet to have somebody come before us and show us where they have intentionally or purposely done a second-rate job on this because their interests or their concern lay elsewhere,, Sooner or later this Council is going to have to get to the point where they are going to have to step on people's toes, locally, to come up with the feasible plan that we can in good conscience and good. faith go to the State and say that this is our point of no return, that this is the plan that we need, this is the plan we want and this is the plan we can justify,, Anything short of that we are coming back and saying, "Don't blame us." The people of West Covina had better blame us if we can't get a better plan for this City,, Mayor Nichols: Tell me which of those plans you feel is a good one for West Covina, really from a standpoint of being a good plan for the City? Councilman Krieger: Let's take Citrus first,, Citrus on the northwest quadrant, no discussion,, But it cleans up a miserable situation that we have at Akron. This is something that we have to get around. I don't see any criticism at all or any concern at all with the recommendation of the Gruen people with respect to the northwest corner of Citrus and the freeway,, Our Planning Commission says it is okay; our staff says it is okay,, Let's go to the northeast section. We don't like that hook system coming off the freeway. Okay. You don't like it,, You have seen what the people recommend. Now, somebody come to me and tell me what you want: What are you going to do with that hook system coming off there? Mayor Nichols: Get rid of it,, Councilman Krieger: Where are you going to put it? Build a bridge? ®10- Co Co 11/15/65 Page Eleven FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued • Councilman Heath: I don't propose to sit here tonight and redesign freeways nor do I expect to be a freeway designer. I would ask at least one thing from Victor Gruen or anyone else who does this designing and that is to abide by the first principle of traffic handling, which I don't think Victor Gruen has done in this case. This stepping on people's toes and offending people, I don't think is in the discussion. I don't think anyone intends to step on anybody's toes or hurt anybody or play.favorites on saving someone's land or jeopardizing someone else's land. We have a duty before us to get for the people of our City the best design that we can get and if it happens to fall across someone's property it will have to fall across someone's property but first let's get the right design and then go to the State and tell them this is what we want and if it abides by the first principles of design Iam sure the State will go along with it. Councilman Krieger: I would like to see us take one illustration. Councilman Heath: Let's go to Grand Avenue. This is a typical example. I can't see one thing on Grand Avenue Interchange proposed there that looks logical. In the first place, you have left turns all over the place. You have the possibility of a left turn into on -coming traffic, traffic coming off of the freeway. You have traffic lights stopping traffic; left turns interrupting traffic. Councilman Krieger: All right; let's;=talkabout that one. Let's say you take the southwest quadrant, and either flip it over into the southeast quadrant to give you right turns coming off or rather be that you superimpose into the southeast quadrant another left such as that so you have right turns coming off. What effect does this have, that kind of suggestion have on Holt Avenue because of the spacing distance and because of the mixing problem that you have? Councilman Heath: I am not about to sit here for the rest of the evening and try to redesign a freeway or interchange. I will answer you this way. If the State has any objection to on and off ramps being too close to one another, they have nothing to do but start from Citrus and go to every interchange all the way into the City of Los Angeles, with the exception of El Monte, and you have on and off ramps within a quarter mile continually. They are not any better than this Grand to Holt. If they can do them on every interchange from here to Los Angeles, they can do the same from Grand to Holt. Mayor Nichols: There are some questions that I haven't had answered. The staff has worked on this for months; Victor Gruen has worked on it for • months; it is brought up to us and in an hour's time we who are politically responsible to our entire community are asked to approve it, vote it through and live with it forever hereafter. I am not that brilliant. I can't sit here in this short period of time and make a decision. I would like to pose some of these questions. I would like to have a study session with the Council where I could look at this in greater detail before commiting myself to a decision. -11- C, Co 11/15/65 Page Twelve FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued ®e • Councilman Jett: We have sat down with representa- tives in the past and discussed our problems and I have found them very receptive to every suggestion we have had to make. I think this would be one place where we have fallen down. Our staff goes down.and talks to the State all the time. We never get a report on it. We never know what they talked about or what happened, I would think here would be a good place for us to have a meeting with the staffs Let's sit down with the State and tell them we are not pleased with what we have in West Covina, we don't have a complete interchange in the entire City that will really handle traffic,, Councilman Krieger: Councilman Snyder suggested back in September that we meet with the State Division of Highways and it was on the concensus of this Council at that time that we would do just that. We were through freeway west and we had not yet the freeway east study and we decided we would wait until we had freeway east before we met with these people but I think it is absolutely required that before we meet with the State people or anybody else that we get some of our signals straight as to what we want and where we want it because if we don't then it is going to be strictly a divide -and -conquer approach by these people who have their own concern to worry about. I am not going back to the redesigning of each of these but I think there are . philosophical aspects we are going to have to agree on before we have this freeway meeting and one of these concepts is are any of you gentlemen prepared to give up any of those four interchanges? I am not, Councilman Heath: Councilman Jett: I am not,, I don't think it is necessary, Councilman Heath: I would like to see this go back to staff to give us a report on what they need in the form of agencies, material, monies, et cetera, to come up with a revised study that includes the first principles of traffic handling, if nothing else, and have it ready for us within one month from tonight with the proposal that whatever agency does this work they are to be advised that this will be full steam ahead, no holds barred, and come up with a decent plan. Move that this be referred back to the staff for said report to be brought to the Council no later than one month from tonight's meeting giving us information of what they need to make a true study including the agency, the material, the cost, and the time, Councilman Jett: I can't second that motion, I am sympathetic with what you • have in mind, However, I can't help but believe that Victor Gruen is as qualified as anybody to do this job. Perhaps we have mislead them, Perhaps we haven't indicated strongly enough to them what we wanted. I would like to see the Minutes of this meeting submitted to Victor Gruen so they could have the thinking of this Council and let's give them two weeks to come up with a report whether they will feel they can come up with something that will solve the situation, that is acceptable to us and will really get the job done properly. If not, let's move on. -12- CO CO 11/15/65 Page Thirteen FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued • Councilman Heath: In all due respect, they were hired to do a job and they should have come to us with the best possible job they could have done. We have paid them $14,000 for this study and we should give it back to them and ask them for a first-class study which they should have done in the first place, and I think that would be throwing good money after bad. Mayor Nichols: Mr. Fast, when was the Victor Gruen report upon which these ramps were based, when was this report due to be made to the Council? Public Services Director, Mr. Fast: The final report in printing ?= at this time and as I under- stand we would expect to receive it within the next two or three weeks. Councilman Jett: I think the contract with Victor Gruen was entered into by the prior Council. Mayor Nichols: Mr. Ai.a.ssa, do you feel that it would be possible to get a report short of perhaps a formal printing, an oral report from Victor Gruen on this where we could sit down and ask questions directly of them? City Manager, Mr. Aiassa: I think so. Mayor Nichols: Would you be agreeable to schedule an immediate or very early meeting with the gentleman who has proposed these designs as a starting point to have a discussion with them and then decide from this? Councilman Krieger: I think we ought to have such a meeting not only as quickly as possible but I think we should include in that meeting not only the Gruen people but the staff and our Planning Commission who advised us on this and acted on this recommendation first, and then I think we had better be prepared as a Council to sit down and not have any of these reports, type meetings where we hear the report and nod our head and try to digest it. We will have to come to this meeting prepared to discuss our specific objections and if we have specific recommendations, our specific recommendations, because otherwise this thing is going to.drag on forever. Mayor Nichols: I would agree. • Councilman Heath: If it is the purpose of this meeting for the Council and the staff and Victor Gruen to sit down and design interchanges, I am not interested. Mayor Nichols: Councilman Heath: You don't have to come. I won't. I think one of these interchanges should be taken -13- • 0 Co C. 11/15/65 FREEWAY EAST HEARINGS - Continued Page Fourteen to Gruen and say, "Look you were paid good money to give us an . interchange. We don't like this,, Now, come up with one, or two, or three, or four designs and then bring it to the staff and Council and let's sit down." I think we could make more progress that way. Mayor Nichols: Honestly, I don't know if any of this is any good or not. I can't sit here and really say that,, I want to get at these people and talk to them and ask them a lot of questions,, Councilman Krieger: One of the problems is that the people we are dealing with here are supposed to be experts in traffic engineering, not mind reading. We have to tell them what we want, Mayor Nichols: Councilman Heath's motion dies for lack of a second. Motion by Councilman Krieger, seconded by Councilman Jett, and carried, that this Council meet in a study meeting on Monday, November 29, 1965 with the Victor Gruen people, the Planning Commission, and with our staff in attendance to review in detail and in specific the interchange system on freeway east. There being no further business, motion by Councilman Jett, seconded by Councilman Krieger, and carried, that this meeting adjourn at 9:55 P.M. ATTEST: CITY CLERK 0 MAYOR -14-