12-21-1964 - Regular Meeting - MinutesMINUTES OF THE ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL
CITY OF WEST COVINA, CALIFORNIA
DECEMBER 21, 1964
The adjourned regular meeting of.the City Council was called to order
by Mayor Snyder at 7:40 P.M. in the West Covina City Hallo
ROLL CALL
Present: Mayor Snyder, Councilmen Jett, Krieger, Nichols, Heath
Others Present: Mro George Aiassa,,City Manager
Mro Robert'Flotten, City Clerk &.Admino-Assistant
Mr.' John Q. Adams', Public Services Director
Mr, Harold Joseph, Planning Director (from 8010 P.M.)
Absent: Mr, Harry Co Williams, City Attorney
PAYMENTS - WARRANTS
NEPTUNE & THOMAS
City Manager, Mr.. Aiassa: This is to advise the'Council
we have received the warrant
for $32,786.00 and it will be'included in the warrants to be'pa d'
on the 28th and is known as Project P.C. 3614, Neptune and Thomaso
This is H.H>F.A. funds.
LEEDS, HILL & JEWETT
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: Mr. Kay has worked out Payment
No. 4-for the amount of $5,071.43
to Leeds,' Hill and Jewett. This will also appear on the warrants of
the 28tho
STANFORD RESEARCH INSTITUTE
City Manager.:j"Mr, Aiassa: They have.completed their
phase of the contract and
the total amount authorized for this was $7,500.00. One payment
of $3,000-000 has been paid. The final payment of.$4,500,00 is the
total cost. This is to be in the warrants of the 28th, On January
J8, 1965 we have invited the representatives of Stanford Research
Institute to meet with the City Council at 7:30 PoMo
WEST COVINA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: At the beginning of these
contracts with the Chamber
there were two payments being made and will be on the warrant
sheet of December 28 -- the third quarter payment of $2,878.00
and the special service agreement in the amount of $1,875.00.
C, C, 12/21/64 Page Two
'PAYMENTS' '- WARRANTS (WEST COVINA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE) Continued
Councilman Krieger: Isn't there supposed to be a
quarterly report?
City Manager, Mr..Aiassas If there is I would like to have
it before January lst,
Councilman Krieger. I would like to see us adhere
to that procedure.
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: You do have a partial report on
the headquarter city concept in
your files.
TRASH
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa:. I presented the Council with a
report and I have a few minor
changes to our original recommendation, We met with Mr; Thorson and
spent some time on..this subject, You have a copy of the audit report
on the West Covina Disposal Company, Mr. Thorson and his staff were
very helpful in assisting us in this audit. We did not do a.final
audit but we did make checks throughout the disposal plant operation.
There are seven possible suggestions and recommendations.
aOne is most customers are
disposing of garbage which cannot or should not be disposed of in
disposalswhile paying only $1.50 per month. Most cities have one
combination pickup per week. That proposed charge of $2.00 per month
woul:d�exceed the maximum charge of. $1.75 now permitted by separate
-gaxbe,ge pickup. The charge*to the customer would be above the average
o:f."t cities in the area. The proposed change to $2.00 per month
waul.d result in an increase of $84,;000 annuallv in gross receipts
by the collector which would increase the 42 percent return to
the City, 11
The second proposal is the
charge of $1.75 per month and five hundred per month to the City would
reduce the City's income by $10,000 per year. The proposal reviewing
the agreement every two years seems in order.
We would like to suggest that
the Council evaluate the possibility of being; there is only 287
customers now drawing two separate checks, one for garbage and one for
trash, and the rest are putting them together,•we might consider
amending the ordinance for a fee of $1.75 for a combination of
garbage and trash. We suggest the possibility of continuting the 40
the first four years, 4 1/2% the next four years and 5% the next four
years, We would like to recommend or suggest to the City Council
that you consider the possibility of continuing the 4°, collection to
be returned to the City for the next four nears and the last four
years we go to the full 50. We also would suggest the contract be
reviewed every two years instead of every four years,
You also realize that Mr,
Thorson has not had a raise for a considerable.number of years, at
least for six years that I know of. If there are any further. questions
I will try to answer them. We would like to make this February 1,
1965 for the change,
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Co Co 12/21/65
TRASH - Continued
Page Three
Councilman Heath: What is the principle behind this
idea of reimbursement to the City?
The monies collected here are collected from the citizens'to the West
• Covina Disposal Company and then there is some monies, 4%, reimbursed
to the City. What is the principle in back of this?
Mayor Snyder: My impression of it is that it"is
in reality a franchise payment
I think this is a franchise payment for_the privilege of the contract
plus the cost this puts on the City for street damage repairs,
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: This is similar to ahy'utility
franchise, I believe we get_2%.
on most gross earnings on all Public Utilities but the telephone company
for using public right of way and public .facilities. This contract gives
Mr. Thorson exclusive rights to all garbage -trash collection in the City
of West Covina.so there is no competition.
Councilman Jett: What did we accomplish by this
audit?
City Manager, Mr. Aiassa: Two things, Mr. Thorson wanted
a $2.00 fee and we checked into
the audit reviewing the possibility if charges were being made that-"
shouldn't be charged against the City. We also were questioning three
different areas: One was maintenance and repairs; review of the admin-
istrative costs, which have gone up; we also were able to justify his
depreciation method which could be a.-strong.factoro We also wanted to
be sure all credits of receipts were made properly to the City.
Councilman Jett: There is nothing stated for
sure in this report. It is
all opinions..
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: He has to do this. If we wanted
to spend $2,000 or more he will
detail audit all the accounts. 1-don't,believe in fairness to the audit
itself that this would be justified in spending that kind of money to
break down that type of a detail. We were concerned about the increase
in salary, the administrative salary, and also Mr. Kay has worked with
the representative of this firma If the Council wants to do a greater,
finer detailed audit, this would be'a separate and additional contract.
Councilman Jett: All through this report as far
as I'm concerned it is very am-
biguous and the auditor doesn't feel like making any kind of a posi-
tive statement.
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: For the time this man had we had
certain items we were particularly
concerned with. If we did audit these in fine detail I doubt if we
would come out with much more information as to whether his operational
cost is high or low, If it was obvious without any question that there
was some collusion I would suggest the Council do a very fine detailed
audit which would be expensive.
Councilman Jett: I couldn't use this report to
justify any kind of a figure.
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C. C, 12/21/64 Page Four
'TRASH Continued
. City Manager, Mr. Aiassa: You have to remember we know
something of this business.
Councilman Krieger: In this audit report I don't
even find a balance sheet. How
about that? I have no way of determining from this report -- I
appreciate it is not a certified report but what is Mr. Thorson's
return?
City Manager, Mr. Aiassa: You have the operating expenses
and the general administrative
expenses,
Councilman Krieger: That is an operating statement,
What I am concerned about is a
balance sheet or statement of financial condition. That is not
included within this report. As a matter.of custom and practice it has
been a long time since I have seen a financial report that didn't
contain a balance sheet or a statement of financial condition, As
I remember, part of Mr. Thorson's justification for a rate increase
was predicated upon.his not receiving a fair return on his investment.
Now the only capital items that I see here are his automotive equipment
which is Schedule 3 on Page 10 which shows a book value as of March 31
as $134,534.15, I understood Mr. Thorson to say he had an investment
of $2509000.00.
Mr. Thorson: No. It is nearer $350,000.00.
I don't think you should raise
the fee on that report alone. I think you should use comparisons
to other cities. You should use my statements and the report.
Finance Director, Mr. Kay: The auditor was asked to come
out and make a preliminary
report of the books and come back and make a report while the staff
was pursuing another line of inquiry which was to determine whether
or not what type.of rate increase would be justified by comparitive
studies. It seems we felt we had enough information to indicate that
a raise.to $1.75 would be the going rate, We felt it would be
justified. We saw nothing in our review of the preliminary review to
indicate that there was anything in Mr. Thorson's operation that would
warrant him to receive anything above the going rate,
Councilman Jett: We were trying to justify this
based on -the amount of monev he
has invested, the return he felt he was entitled to for that investment
and if we can justify this I think he would be entitled.
Councilman Krieger: We have on the report of November 6,
1964 on the meeting of rubbish
and garbage disposal contract certain statements made by the Cities of
Glendora, Monrovia and Sierre Madre. I believe Mr, Thorson has
contracts with Glendora and Sierra Madre.. In the City of Glendora it
is $1.75 for once a week pickup and yet Mr, Thorson is only paid $1.36
of that $1.75.
(Mr. Joseph,entered the chambers at 8:10 P.M.)
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C, C. 12/21/64
TRASHContinued
Page Five
City Manager, Mr. Aiassa: The reason is that the City of
Glendora does the billing and
the collecting. All other cities that do all the billing and collecting
also take care of all delinquent bills and there is no percentage involved.
Councilman Krieger: On Schedule 1 on Page 8, may I
have an explanation of office
salaries?
City Manager, Mr. Aiassa: Originally Mr. Thorson was
taking a salary himself. Now
he has a full-time office manager and these are the items we talked
over with the auditor and the increase started in 1962. In 159-160
there was no salary; 160-161, $159000; 161-1629 $189000; 162-163,
$130500; 163-164, no salary. In 161162 the office cost was $11,200.
In 162-'63 it went to $22,200.00, In 163-164, $28,200. This is when
Mr. Proctor was put on salary. It was transferred from salary to
administrative.
Councilman Krieger:
Finance Director, Mr. Kay:
Councilman Krieger:
Finance Director, Mr. Kay:
1-41hat was the reason to go to a
double declining balance method
of depreciation?
To recover some of his cost.
This enables him to depreciate
more rapidly.
How does that effect your
reportable income?
It decreases it in the first,
year.
Councilman Krieger: In fact it went form $31,000 to
$54,000 on depreciation alone.
Isn't that a paper entry as far as that is concerned by using the double
declining balance rather than the straight line depreciation?
Finance Director, Mr. Kay: It could be. He is writing off
a lot of expenses and it could
well be depending on how long he keeps those trucks.
Councilman Krieger: Puente Refuse Disposal
Corporation operates the dump
that the contractor uses.and the audit.report shows Mr. Thorson
owns an 8% interest in the Puente Refuse Disposal Corporation,
Mr. Thorson: I.own 8% of this one down here
but very little rubbish goes
in there because of the distance to this dump. The one we use is the
one at Azusa, the Azusa Rock Company which is owned by Mr. Bender
and the other dump is Owl Rockbed which I don't go to. Weighing it
out from the distance and gasoline mileage, it is cheaper to go up to
Azusa than to go all the way down to Puente. The figures I gave you on
the.increase was only on the loads we take to Azusa.
Councilman Krieger.: I would suggest that Mr. Thorson
pick up another 1% interest, if
the audit is correct. You are 1% below what your contract requires you
to own. As I understand it this is a California corporation and stock
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C. C, 12/21/64 Page Six
-TRASSH Continued
ownership is 50% Paul W, Thorson and 50% City Refuse Service of Clendora,
Inc, That is a corporation, too,
Mr, Thorson: I own that one, too.
Councilman Krieger: You only own 50% of this parti-
cular business.
Mayor Snyder: What is the life of the trucks?
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: About four years. The Council
has requested that the men be
put in uniform, Has this been taken care of?
Mr, Thorson: They will be in uniform as
soon as we have the money to do
it.
Councilman Krieger: Can you direct my attention to
any report we have in any file
that shows the rate of return on capital investment?
Mr. Thorson: I gave you a copy of it. It
was dated September 21, I believe.
• Councilman Krieger: I don't see anything constituting
a statement of financial condition.
Mr, Thorson: It is around 5%.
Councilman Krieger: If you were to get the increase
to $2.00 you would have a 5.560
return on your investment. What is your return on your investment
at the present rate?
Mr. Thorson: Nothing. It is a loss.
Councilman Krieger: Po we have anything to illustrate
that?
Mr. Thorson: I gave it to you the first
night. I showed it as a
loss on my income tax return, It made a small profit. If I had drawn
a salary, it would have been a loss.
Councilman Heath: When was the last time you
raised the rate in Arcadia?
Mr. Thorson: I have a $2.00 rate over there.
The last time I raised it, I
. think, was in the fifties. I worked it around to eliminate the
garbage. I am getting $2.00 over there as of November 1 of this year.
About two years ago I got the increase.
Councilman Nichols: Mr. Thorson, you have mentioned
a figure of approximately
$350,000 in capital investment for this specific operation in the City
of West Covina. The additional amount for the rate increase indicated
here is $42,000 and I am going to assume, perhaps erroneously, that
I.
C. C, 12/21/64
TRASH 'Continued
Seven
there would not be essentially heavy additional costs or expenses
involved in achieving this extra $42,000; it is not an additional
service provided. If you applied the $42,000 just in a gross sense to
the $350,000 figure you come up to about 120 or 13%, In general terms,
what are the factors that than bring us up with a profit figure of only
5 0?
Councilman Krieger; This sheet breaks it down
(indicating), Could you
amplify on the operations of the City Refuse Service of Glendora? I
understand they use the same yard.
Mr, Thorson: In Glendora they collect our
money for us. We have no
expense out of this office at all, We have no book work. We bharge
off 31,,9% and it is justifiable of the expenses of which a check is
written for the expense. That is actually what it costs,
Councilman Krieger: Mr. Kay, couldyou reflect on
that based on Schedule 1 on
Page 8 which lists the percentage of collection charges? I am
trying to determine the interrelation of the two operations out of
this one yard and Mr. Thorson amplified something into the operations
as it pertains to Glendora. Originally I posed the question as to
how you could justify your recommendation based upon how much Mr.
Thorson gets from Glendora and I assume that schedule 1 on Page 8
indicates the general and administrative expenses which would be
appertinent only to collection charges.
Finance Director, Mr. Aiassa: I know that Mr. Evans indicated
that the expenses of operating
the yard were divided on a gross revenue basis around 31, 320
between the Glendora operation and our operation._
Councilman Heath:
and the report also points out
Disposal's books which could or
thing I.can make my decision on
cities.
This report we have from the
accountant isn't very helpful
there are points in the West Covina
could not stand a review. The only
is comparable service in comparable
Mayor Snyder: They don't necessarily say here
that they doubt the final
figures, As I understand it a detailed audit would only verify these
figures by checking all of the tickets, I think perhaps they didn't
arrive at enough conclusions here,
Councilman Nichols: Are you in a position to be
able to make a decision on
this matter despite or without this semi or dabbling into audit that
• you are speaking of? Do you have enough additional information that
neither the information in this partial audit will prevent you from
making this decision or enable you to make a decision in one way
or another?
Councilman Heath: I said before the only justi-
fication I could use in making
a decision would be comparable rates in comparable cities.' I am
ready to make a decision,
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C, C, 12/21/64 Page Eight
TRASH Continued
Mayor Snyder: I don't think we need a detailed
audit. I don't think it would
give us any more information unless we asked for recommendations from the
audit,
Councilman Nichols: I would not seek a more detailed
audit. The facts as I see
them in this matter are that Mr, Thorson has had the same rates
being charged in the residential pickup area for the past eight
years approximately. That is an extended period of time, The study
that has been made by the staff has resulted in the staff recommending
an increase in rates of approximately half of that which he has requested,
The indications are that this increase would create a return of approxi-
mately 50 on capital invesement, which is less than the amount normally
authorized by regulatory agencies relative to most public utilities,
Therefore, it would be my feeling that the recommendation of the City
Manager is one that I would support. I would be inclined to think that
the Council might leave the door open, that is not make this an
unequivocable adjustment for the remainder of the total contract
period but leave it for reconsideration in two years as per this
recommendation and if a profit picture jumps into an area that the
Council deems is not satisfactory from the standpoint of the public
interest it can be reviewed downward as well as upward.
Motion by Councilman Nichols, seconded by Mayor Snyder that the City
Manager's recommendation relative to the increase in the contract
and modifications of the trash contract as suggested be implemented.
Motion passed on roll call as follows:
Ayes: Councilmen Jett, Nichols, Mayor Snyder
Noes: Councilmen Krieger, Heath
Absent: None
Mayor Snyder: Are we going to takeup the matter
of the trash cans tonight?
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa:
abuse and use, We have two
be a handle for the lid and
for the trash man to handle
available through dealers or
which would be about $20®00,
by the City Council,
The problem we now have is a
good trash can that will survive
samples. One is a 35 gallon, There should
there should be an indentation in the bottom
when he dumps it. These cans would be
the trash collector at a wholesale cost
This was a project given to the staff
Councilman Nichols: I didn't have anything in mind
about $20-cans when I was talking
about that. I think it is
very remote that very many'people'in the City voluntarily are going
to buy $20-cans.
Motion by Councilman Heath, seconded by Councilman Jett, and carried,
that the matter of new trash cans be removed from the agenda,
ME
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Cm C, 12/21/64
ALLSOPP PROPERTY
Page Nine
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: We made a proposal to Robert
Allsopp and he has a real
estate agent representing him, We now have a letter on file received
by Larry Voll speaking on behalf of the owner (read said letter,)
Mr, Allsopp has authorized him to prevent the necessity of proceeding
with the imminent domain suit but the $50,000 figure must be net to him;
further that he would be allowed to live on the subject property rent
free to June„ 1965, We are discussing now the cost of escrow fees
which in a transaction of this type would probably run about $146,
stamM axe $55 and the policy of insurance is $188.25, This comes to
a total of $389,25, Our letter to them suggested we share these costs,
Normally in all transactions we have undertaken between the City and
other property owners is that they do share the costs, We hope not
to deviate from our standard procedure on this matter unless the Council
wishes to do otherwise,
Councilman Heath:
I think their request is justi-
fied
in this respect: That we
have, on occasion in
the past, come
to this
position and the City
Attorney has told us
that instead
of going
to trial that we would be
permitted to grant 10%
above the
appraised
figure, This is well
within the 10% and I
feel it is a
justified
request and I think legally
we can absorb these
costs,
Councilman Nichols:
We are talking about $200,
Councilman Krieger: The term "net" is used here
and may I assume that the
only charges that Mr. Allsopp is asking the City to assume are the
three specific charges outlined in his letter --- escrow, title
charges and internal revenue stamps?
Mr, Voll: These are the charges that we
are asking that the City pay
for as the buyer and the only charges deviating from normal procedures,
Councilman Nichols:
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa:
Councilman Nichols:
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa:
Councilman Krieger:
Councilman Heath:
Mr, Voll:
I think that is entirely in
order,
There is also six months free
rent,
What is the need of the City for
this.property during the next
six months?
It can be a condition of sale
when we put it in escrow,
You just have a statement that
possession doesn't take place
for six months,
Mr. Allsopp if he lives there
will pay for the fire insurance,
utilities?
Yes,
ME
C, C, 12/21/64
ALLSOPP P�flPERTY Continued
Page Ten
Councilman Jett: As I recall the City Attorney
• said we could not allow them
to live on City property for free because there is a tax situation
involved here,
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: We can't make a gift of public
property for private use. In
the case here we would acquire this property and it would be a part of
the transaction of the escrow that he remain there for six months,
Councilman Krieger:
I don't see it is any different
than any other purchase
transaction,
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: We would be able to exempt the
taxes if we actually take
possession of the title. I don't think this would interfere with the
City's plans for the property except ire need the`back portion for
fire training which he has agreed to,
Councilman Nichols: Move that the City Manager and
the City Attorney be instructed
to draw the appropriate papers implimenting the purchase of this
property and that in said purchase the provision exist that the City
will pay those charges, in connection with the sale as enumerated
here in the proposal read to the Council this evening and that further
as a condition of sale the City accepts the proposal that the seller
be allowed to occupy the property providing that he pay the necessary
insurance to protect such property until July 1, 1964.
Councilman Heath: I would like to have an amendment
that the seller sign a statement
of non responsibility, to hold us harmless statement that the City
will not be held responsible for any accident or so forth upon the
property to be worded properly by the City Attorney,
Councilman Nichols: I will accept that amendment,
Councilman Krieger: There have been certain figures
used and I don't believe it is
significant enough to influence my vote but it should be pointed out
that we are talking not about $200 because the $188,25 would be
exclusively the seller's expense and the $55 would be exclusively the
seller's expense and one half of the escrow fees would be the seller's
expense so we are talking about more than $200 but that doesn't effect
my decision.
Action on Councilman Nichols' motion as amended by Councilman Heath:
Seconded by Councilman Jett, Motion passed on roll call as follows:
Ayes: Councilmen Jett, Krieger, Nichols, Heath, Mayor Snyder
• Noes: None
Absent: None
Councilman Heath: Recently we were discussing an
exchange of property,of this
property with the Skelton property and I think this would be the time
to bring up this point, Today I had the opportunity to talk with
Leonard Jones, the owner of the property adjacent to Mr. Skelton's
property on Merced and Glendora and I feel that there is a mis-
representation concerning the attitude of Mr, Jones, I think that
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C, C, 12/2.1/64
AI: GPP PROPERTY Continued
Page Eleven
Mr, Jones is willing to sit down and arbitrate and I also feel and I
would like to request if Mr. Krieger would"be so inclined, to have
Mr, Krieger sit down with Mr. Jones and discuss the problem of acquiring
the land, et cetera, and report back to us his opinion of what we should
don The reason I bring this up is that from the comments made by Mr,
Krieger I think it would be advantageous to the City to have Mr. Krieger
talk with Mr, Jones and get Mr. Jones' version of what is needed to
save a condemnation suit,
Councilman Krieger: As I remember we directed an
offer to be made to Mr,, Jones
at our last meeting indicating the valuation that we placed on his
property, is that not a fact?
City Manager, Mr. Aiassa: Yes, The letter has been sent,
Councilman Krieger: Do we have a response to that
letter?
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: No.,
Councilman Krieger: I have no objection to rendering
a service to the City, Mr. Heath,
but I have no desire to render any service whatsoever to Mr. Jones and
if I am being asked by this Council to intercede in any type of matter
it is strictly understood that I will be acting solely as a Councilman
and not as an attorney, I have no desire to act in matters that are
properly the privince of the City Attorney and I feel negotiations of
this type are strictly within the province of the City Attorney,
Councilman Heath: The intent was to have you talk
with him as a Councilman and not
as an attorney. There was no attempt of any discussion of legality,
Councilman Krieger: I don't have any strong objections
except I don't particularly
care for the precedent that it mi-ght establish and that is any
individual Councilman at any time.discussing with any property owner
the valuation of his property or the manner in which the City might
acquire it and I think particularly with reference to Mr. Yount in
this regard that it is not a good idea, As I remember we had a
discussion about two or three weeks back as to what discussions
were going on with Mr.Yount about the status of his property,
Councilman Heath: I think this is an entirely
different problem. If you went
to talk with Mr. Jones you would be sent by the Council to talk ;,with
.him and I think you would then be acting as a Councilman sent by the
Council to talk to him. In the other case there was an antion made
where two people were told to have meetings with Mr, Yount and'in my
estimation somewhere along the line one of the people was dropped,
Councilman Krieger: If it was the mandate of this
Council, of course I will go
at the wish of the majority of the Council. If I am asked to state
my specific or individual preference it would be against taking
such a precedent,
Councilman Heath: I would rather not force the
issue.
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C, C, 12/21/64
OFF-STREET PARKING
and
AMENDMENT NO, 68
Mr, Joseph:
Councilman Nichols:
Page Twelve
(Gave brief summary of this
matter.)
When is the second portion of the
off-street parking ordinance
coming?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: The second portion of the report
has to do with the design of
parking layouts, The report is completed and on my desk and will be
brought to the Planning Commission and they will be asked to set it
for public hearing. It will be a separate item,
Councilman Nichols: Would the relevency between
Part 1 and Part 2 be such that
it would be appropriate for the Council to discuss both parts
concurrently or each part separately?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: I believe they should be con-
sidered separately because the
subject matter is totally independent one from the other,
Councilman Nichols: The only question I had was the
requirements on convalescent
homes, hospitals, and sanitariums. I know you make some mention of it
in the report but I would like clarification. This has proven adequate
according to surveys to be made?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: We have indicated to you that the
parking ratio we now have is
inadequate and we are asking that it be increased. The requested
increase is based on surveys that have been made,
Councilman Heath: Under definitions on this
Planning Commission Resolution
No, 1716, it is true it defines convalescent home, a rest home and
then we come to the gross floor area. Does that gross floor area
pertain to just the convalescent homes and rest homes?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: Everything,
Councilman Heath: It says the gross floor area is
the area included within t-he
surrounding exterior walls of a building or portion thereof exclusive
of vent shafts, courts and other floor area space devoted entirely to
heavy mechanical equipment. Would we give credit for hallways in an
office building? The office areas are what would govern the parking
spaces. Therefore shouldn't we say in the definition that hallways
are not included?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: Nog I would not, First of all,
the internal structure of the
building may be altered. We found this is the case, that it can be
done, I am not saying it is the rule, We would like to look at a
usable floor space within a building and come up with the parking on
the floor space. There are also instances where there are desks in
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C. C, 12/21/64 Page Thirteen
'0'FF- 'STREET 'PARKING AND AMENDMENT NO. 68 - Continued
. hallways,, This is not a change from the way we compute area now in
terms of using hallways, It is a change in that we would be granting
allowances to developers to eliminate floor space which is non-
functional floor space where as at the present time we don't grant
this allowance, Where there is the opportunity for sitting, for move-
ment, for use, business use, we would ask that the amount of floor
space, the computation remain exactly the way it is right now with no
change. The floor area can be adjusted to make functional. We think
it would be inherently more difficult to administer an ordinance that
would say we were going to eliminate corridors, hallways from our floor
area computation because the area we are eliminating today may be used
in the future and walls moved around,
Councilman Heath: In cases where you have bearing
walls I think provisions should
be permitted to eliminate the non-functional area,
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph: We find with our present parking
ratio on offices including
hallways the ratio now is too.low. We have been using this'grross
floor area on computation parking.
Councilman Jett:
I think you have to take into
stairways and these things.
I think Councilman Heath's
suggestion is very logical.
consideration your hallways, your
Mayor Snyder: I think what Mr. Joseph is
trying to say is that you are
going to run into a lot of trouble if you attempt to allocate parking
by omitting halls, et cetera, when you have people coming in here
with different definitions of what are hallways and everything else.
I can see a big administrative problem here.
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph:
We should eliminate these areas
that are not to be used for office space or could not be used for
office space but are required by the Building Code. In our discussion
with the people on our revisions to our parking, the way we compute
the parking, whether we include hallways or not, was not the issue,
We talked to the designers and users of the building themselves and
frankly this was not an area in which they felt a change was worth-
while. The changes where they thought it was worthwhile, where they
thought we were penalizing them for area being counted on off-street
parking when they could never use the floor area was their problem.
For this we would like to deduct it but these are easily identi.fial:,le.
Councilman Heath: "The major hallways of a bearing
wall structure" should be the
no
rding and I think that should be eliminated from the computation.
• Just the main hallway down the middle of the building would be counted,
t inner halls within an office.
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph: This,method of computation has
not been a problem to now.
There is the possibility of people using the hallway for seats, waiting
rooms and this would be difficult to determine. Our whole intent and
purpose of every ordinance change is to make it more simple and if we
wrote a text where you would have to throw bearing walls into it and a
lot of other language, it may be more difficult to administer than the
code we have right now.
-13-
C, C, 12/21/64 Page Fourteen
"OFF-STREET PARKING 6 AMENDMENT NO, 68 - Continued
. Councilman Nichols: Under definitions in the recom-
mendations why have you separated.
convalescent homes and rest homes and guest homes and then given
identically the same definitions? Can you explain that to me?.
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: I refer you to the memo of the
18th, We have combined boarding
house and lodging house into one classification, We have combined
hospitals and sanitariums into one definition. For convalescent homes
we made a special point to relate these only to places where people who
are recovering their health after an illness or a person requiring
post operative attention, This is a place where close attention must
be given to a person, This would be a quasi public facility put in
the unclassified use permit section. The only change we made was to
take a rest home, which is similar in many ways to a boarding home, and
let them go into a zone with it, There you would not have convalescents
requiring particular attention, a lot of doctors and nurses and other
technical people assisting them but rather they would remain there and
it would be very similar to a multiple family unit,
Councilman Nichols: The only difference I can see
in your definition here between
the convalescent home and the rest home as you define it is in the one
you limit it to invalids and aged persons and in the other you add
those who are convalesing,
Mayor Snyder:
home and which is a rest home,
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph:
conducted in the facility. One is of a
Mayor Snyder:
or nursing home has bed patients which
more parking for personnel, et cetera,
Councilman Nichols:
This is.controlled by State law
as to which is a convalescent
It is a legal definition but
it is the kind of use actually
medical nature.
A rest home is only a home for
the aged. A convalescent home
requires more nurses, therefore
The. definitions that are here
do not state these differences,
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: The rest home is a home operated
as a boarding house, For a
boarding house a building just states a building where lodging and
meals are provided for compensation, period, -
Councilman Krieger: I notice on Page 15 of the report
you want to add high rise and
that is according to use. Is there some reason why you don't put'in
• this list "high rise" and then "according to use"?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: The definition we are trying
to achieve is one where we can
then utilize that reduction in gross floor area that would not be used
on a single story building. In other words, all we want to do is get
a definition in here so we can say when you go up in the air we can
start deducting certain things. I believe it may be that the gross
floor area on the high rise could be combined into one definition,
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C, C, 12/21/64 Page Fifteen
O'FF-STREET PARKING 8 AMENDMENT NO 68 Continued
Councilman Krieger: You still don't get to a question
• of use, The way you have defined
high rise ,is fine except it doesn't define for purposes of determining
what the off-street parking requirements are,
•
•
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: But if you combine it with the
gross floor area it would be because
the whole purpose of the definition here is to determine a floor
area ratio for off-street parking,
Councilman Krieger: Then there would be a conflict
between your report on Page 15
and the definitions that you ask us to accept. Within your report
you say you determined parking ratios of high rise buildings according
to the use of the building. Where if we accept these definitions
including the definition of gross floor area or high rise, do we reach
that result?
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph: The only difference would be
in the use of the structure
itself, If you had a high rise office building it would not carry
the same parking ratio as a four-story or a three-story May Company.
Your basic computation would be on the use of.the facility itself.
Councilman Krieger: Should not we have some cross
reference to that within our
definitions somewhere so that if you have a high rise application you
get into a further definition of use?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph:
Councilman Krieger:
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph:
it probably could be expressly stated.
Yes, we.could do that,
Don't you think it would be
preferable?
We can add that to it. It
has been implied in this but
Councilman Krieger: I would like to summarize the
changes. On offices, it is your
suggestion and the Commission's resolution was now one -to -three hundred
be more restrictive, one -to -two hundred for non -medical; that under
30,000 square foot gross floor space, which is now one-to-150 go
less restrictive, 1-to-200; that hospitals which are now one-to-one
be more restrictive, one -to -one -and -a -half; that convalescent homes
which are now one -to -three be more restrictive and they,are going to
be one -to -two. Those are the only changes as I understand it in
comparing it with the existing ordinance.
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph: That's correct. Those are
changes, not additions.
Councilman Jett: I think the parking of 200
square feet for office space
is too restrictive and this is based on my personal expert opinion
as a real estate developer, builder. I think our one per 300 square
feet for office building is ample and in reading through the opinions
given by the Planning Department I have not found anything other than
just their opinions and I don't know of anyone of these men who have
built an office building or developed an office building or had any
practical experience whatsoever to justify this type'of a restriction.
-15-
C, C, 12/21/64
OFF=SfiREET PARKING .6. AMENDMENT NO, '68 Continued
Page Sixteen
• This is a thirty-three and a third per cent change making it much
stricter and I do know the offices built up to this time have come in
fcr variances asking for relief. I think what we have now is ample.
•
Mayor Snyder: I can speak from experience. A
group of offices where my office
is we own the group of offices and they were designed under the old
parking requirements for medical which was one-to-300. Since then it
has been lowered to one-to-150 plus the fact that the stalls were made
wider, When we bought it we felt we could enlarge under the old parking
requirements but with the new parking requirements we cannot enlarge
and this is particularly irritating because we need to but I am
convinced that the new requirements are right because right now we
have enough parking for our present space but it is all used.
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph: We acknowledge we are not experts
in this field. In fact, there
are really very few people who say "I am an expert in the required
amount of off-street parking". There is no text you can go to, there
is no formula you can use to say how much parking is right for one
particular use. As we mentioned at the Planning Commission meeting
it is more an art than a science but we did attempt in our field work
and though the material in here may be sketchy.it just gives an
indication of what we came up with. We talked to a lot of people,
The staff talked to people and I talked to people and we had the results
of their interviews documented, We talked to builders, developers,
occupants, architects, designers, real estate people,.and from them we
tried to glean what in their experience has been a proper parking ratio
and what they thought of our present code and what recommendations
they could make and I would venture to say the standards we have come
up with are more what people in this community.would want than anything
else, at least on the basis of the surveys we have made.
Councilman Jett: We have had investors who have
come into the City and attempted
to build eight, ten, twelve -story buildings and have filed for approval
to build these based upon our present parking requirements. To date
none of these have built., Why? I don't know. I am sure it hasn't
been purely because of parking but I hesitate to see us now make it
even more stringent when thou who_ have built have had to come in for
variances, `
Councilman Krieger: We may be creating a problem if
we restrict this and I dislike
this variance strongly and I don't like to see us create a situation
where we are going to promote more applications for variances in these
fields than we presently have. If we become more stringent whereas
we have not had a number of variances we may be creating a problem
area for more variances at least being applied for, not necessarily
granted,
Mayor Snyder: We
.
in
have big tracts where they are going to be
buildings with blacktop. I think that is
now. There isn't much text you can go to
of it is experience, Is it better to err
or having too little?
are reaching the point now
some cases where we no longer
able to surround their
why we need to look at this
to determine this and most
in requiring too much parking
-16-
C. C. 12/21/64 Page Seventeen
O'Fr-STREET PARKING 6 AMENDMENT N0. 68 - Continued
Councilman Jett: I think this is a question that
. is going to be substantially
have to be resolved by the architect and the builder because they are
the ones that are going to have to make it pay and they are going to
have to determine the type of use proposed, the number of parking
that will be available and when you are leasing a building these are
the questions you resolve at the time,
Councilman Krieger: Do we have any experience of
the one-to-300 ratio of any
non -medical office building in this City where it is proved that this
is not working out?
Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: Between now and next Monday
we will try and investigate
this question and come back with reports,
•
Mayor Snyder: Especially in our downtown area
our streets are inadequate and
if we don'.t require enough parking we are going to force more cars on
the already inadequate streets, Obviously we are going to have to wait
for this report but I am convinced Mr. Joseph will have no trouble
finding examples,
Councilman Heath:
Mayor Snyder:
Councilman Heath:
I still have an objection to that
hallway being included in the
computation,
Can't you see a lot of
administrative problems?
No, I can't.
Planning Director, Mr. Joseph: Many times when the precise plan
comes in we don't have the
internal layout when the shell appears on the plan. Is it your feeling
that with those exceptions as with the possible insert of 200 or 300
on the offices that we can prepare an ordinance for your consideration?
Mayor Snyder:.
I think that is the feeling of
the Council.
Motion by Councilman Heath, seconded by Councilman Jett, and carried,
that Amendment No, 68 be held over with the hearing held open to the
meeting of December 28, 1964 awaiting the report of the staff.
COUNCIL CALL-UP
• Councilman Heath: I would like to call up the
matter of the variance regarding
the Schlanger and Curtis sign. This is Variance No. 425, Revision 1.
This was held before the Planning Commission on December 16, 1964. . .
-17-
•
•
C, C,
12/21/64
CAPITAL OUTLAY BUDGET SESSION
Mayor Snyder:
Page Eighteen
This can be on the 5th of
January.
Councilman Nichols: Can we also add an item on
reducing the length of Council
agendas for that particular study session.
Mayor Snyder: All right. Is the staff going
to have any specific recommenda-
tions as to priorities on some of these items?
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: Yes.
Mayor Snyder: If we were to go for a bond issue
would it not be better to take
some of this money and use it as a reserve for the cost of your bond
election, et cetera?
City Manager, Mr. Aiassa:
Mayor Snyder:
City Manager, Mr, Aiassa:
Mayor Snyder:
EMPLOYMENT OFFICE
You can't spend money for
promotion, only for the election.
Hold it back for the first
year's payment or something.
If the bond issue fails you can
start financing your own civic
center.
Let's not load that agenda
with a lot of items.
Mayor Snyder: Could we.have a letter of commenda-
tion to all those that worked
preparing the material for the employment office, including Mr. Tambe
and the City staff?
Councilman Heath
have more hard feelings.
amount of work on it.
Mayor Snyder:
Councilman Heath:
How are you going to cover them
all? If you start this you will
There are some people who did a tremendous
We can just say the Chamber.
Send it to the Chamber as a whole.
Motion by Councilman Nichols, seconded by Councilman Heath, and carried,
that the Council authorize the Mayor and the City staff to send a
letter of appreciation to the Board of Directors of the Chamber of
Commerce for the efforts that the Chamber put forth in bringing the.
Department of Employment office to West Covina.
1
CQ C. 12/21/64 Page Nineteen
. STREET SWEEPER
City Manager, Mr. Aiassa:. We have a report on the street
sweeper. I will give it to
you for your consideration at the meeting of the -5th.
There being no further business, Motion by Councilman Heath, seconded
by Councilman Krieger, and carried, that this meeting adjourn at
10:45 P.M.
• ATTEST:
CITY CLERK
•
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