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11-02-1964 - Special Meeting - MinutesSTUDY SESSION BETWEEN THE CITY COUNCIL AND THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND THE PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION CITY OF WEST COVINA, CALIFORNIA NOVEMBER 2, 1964 The study session between the City Council and the Planning Commission and the Parks and Recreation Commission was called to order by Mayor Snyder at 8:20 P.M. in the West Covina City Hallo R'O'LL' CALL City Council - Present: Mayor Snyder, Councilmen Jett, Krieger, Nichols, Heath Others Present: Mr, George Aiassa, City Manager Mr. Robert Flotten, City Clerk 8 Admin. Assistant Mr, John Q. Adams, Public Services Director Mr, Harold Joseph, Planning Director Mr. Raymond Windsor, Administrative Analyst Absent: Mr. Harry Co Williams, City Attorney Planning Commission: Present: Chairman Fast (from'8:25 PaM.), Commissioner Kayser Absent: Commissioners Gleckman, McCann, Travis Parks and Recreation Commission: Present: Chairman Johnson, Commissioners Keith, Veronda, Whitcher Others Present: Mr. Robert Gingrich, Parks and Recreation Director Absent: Commissioner Bushing RECREATION 8 PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM Mayor Snyder: We are meeting tonight to go over the final report on the recom- mendations regarding recreation and parks in an informal discussion of what is proposed, how we see it, and what we think we can sell. We ave the recommendation. Would the Chairman of the Parks and Recreation ommission care to go over this verbally? Chairman Johnson: Our basic approach was to come up with three recommendations along with what we thought was our basic minimum recommendation. Recom- mendation 1 gives us what we feel is a minimum requirement to satisfy the needs of the City, (Chairman Fast entered the chambers at 8:25 PoMo) O1m l STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Two RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM - Continued Chairman Johnson; With Recommendations 2 and 3 we tried to go through each of our is original recommendations and cut down still trying to keep a certain continuity all through the program,, In Recommendation 3 which we felt was the barest essential we still try to keep the same continuity all the way through, Mayor Snyder; I think we should go though this item by item. Councilman Krieger; You have about $400,000 which suggests the participation of the school districts. Has this been explored with the school districts? Chairman Johnson; No. This is our educated guess as to where this might take place, Councilman Krieger: At any stage of your discussion with any representatives of the school district present, were the school districts made aware of these recommendations? Chairman Johnson: I think in our original proposal we have a list of things that were possible joint participation points of things that we presented to the school districtand these things in here reflect some of this,, It is not completely new to them; however, we have not discussed this with them specifically,, Commissioner Whitcher; We have contacted the representatives of the Covina and the West Covina School Districts and we have from them an assurance that on a swimming pool they would love to participate with use We have also cooperated with them on a 50-50 basis on the tennis courts,, We have the ground- work laid, We know the element of cooperation is there, Councilman Heath; If there is a fact that the school system cannot participate in financial participation what does this do to this program? Mayor Snyder; Councilman Heath; Councilman Krieger: Chairman Johnson; Mayor Snyder: Obviously they wouldn't include this. They don't have detailed studies on this. If the school systems cannot put forth any cash at all will it effect this? On Page 3 it shows a possible deduction. All we have done is take educated guesses,, Before any bond issue or program would be set up you -would have to have more specifics,, -2- STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page ,Three,. RECREATION . PARKS CAPITAL'IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM-- Continued Commissioner Whitcher, We have a basic insurance from them that they could donate the'land; the heating could be donated. There is a very good possibility,that they could go into the shower rooms, build a gymnasium .type thing adjacent to the school. This is the way they could circumvent the possibility of not being able to cash participate. They can absorb the maintenance of the pool for eight months of the year. Commissioner Veronda; There is no guarantee at this time. If it were a possibility the total amount could be reduced in order. There is no specific amount either stated or implied that any of this amount could be from the school district, Mayor Snyder: I would like to go through this report item by item and you can give us your justifications for these items. LAND ADDITIONS ® EXISTING PARKS DEL NORTE PARK Councilman Krieger; Concerning the proposed addition, 2.3 acres, can the proposed additions, for example the swimming pool, be imposed upon the existing 7.0 acres? Mr. Gingrich; It is proposed for the additional acreage, We don't feel it could be adequately put on the existing acreage when you get the parking area, et cetera, that is needed. We have a precise plan on that park now without a swimming pool and that park is being'developed now in that manner, Chairman Johnson; You could put it on there but you would disturb your basic plan for the parka GALSTER PARK Councilman Krieger; Why when we have 30 acres up there are you recommending an additional 30 acres? Secondly, where do you get the figure $300,000 for 30 acres? Mr. Gingrich; The Planning Department accumulated the figures. This represented the best guess at the time. The thinking as far as a City park is concerned for a community this size based on the California -Guide for Recreation and Parks, this City should have a park area ranging in size from 60 to 100 acres. I think the figure of 62 was arrived at from discussions at staff level as feeling this would be something practical to aim for and shoot for. The existing 32 acres is controlled as far as the development by the deed of gift that goes with it,. The requirements that would normally go on a city park would have to go on adjacent acreage that wouldn't hold some of these restrictions. You would' still have your wilderness area adjacent to the other area that will be more developable for the types of things you have, -3- STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Four RECREATION.& PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM 'Continued Councilman Krieger: Within each of your recommendations is there any significance we are supposed to attach.to the fact Del Norte is first, Galster is second, Orangewood is third? Chairman Johnson: Councilman Krieger: Chairman Johnson: Councilman Krieger: No, If you were mendations there would No, asked to make recom® to this sub catagory, be no order? What about the $300,000 figure? Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: We got our first set of figures from the assessment rolls, The Planning Commission and the Parks and Recreation Commission suggested we make other surveys and we had comperable sales values in the general area and we received those and they appeared low but we used them, I talked to the property owners and got their inflated impression of what their land was worth, On the basis of that we would like to raise some of these figures. This is merely an impression and I have nothing to back this up in terms of scientific data, but I think we are talking about a half -million dollars more, Mayor Snyder: The importance of the land acquisition without regard to cost and when we get appraisal costs which we would have to do before we go to bond issue, then is when we decide whether the importance of the acquisition is worth the cost, I don't think we should do that tonight, Councilman Heath: I agree that we should be going over every item and assigning -a priority to it but I can't help but think the extent to which we go as a bond issue is going to be determined by amount, I think the amount is one of the most important things we should get in the beginning; If this is going to come to eight million instead of four and a half million I think we should know this right now before we start wasting time, Mayor Snyder: We also know we need parks and when we go out and get our appraisal figures we will have to weigh these against the need, It is expensive but it is going to be more expensive five years from now, We can't do anything about the price, Councilman Krieger: I think ultimately we can all agree that the source of revenue is going to be limited and we are going to have so much at our disposal and in the final analysis we are going to have to boil it down to not just a priority list on land acquisition but a further definition of priority within that; in other words, is the recommendation that we pick up a swimming pool or two acres of land. That will be the moment of truth we will arrive at, -4® STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Five "R'ECREATION 8 PARKS'CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM Continued Mayor Snyder: What the Parks and Recreation people are telling us is what we need, The price decision is to be made later, It is not fair to ask them to Eet prices on this. They are not real estate men, Councilman Krieger: The line of this questioning is not to determine whether or not they can fix a price on land but the line of questioning if it is going to be beneficial to the Council is to find out what areas of this report and this recommendation need further exploration and further definition and these people can be most beneficial to us if we can turn around and tell them what areas we want particular exploration in, Councilman Nichols: These reports have been ready for some time, This is a recommendation as to what we need, I have studied mine carefully and I am sure none of us want to sit here just to discuss what we need, I am confused as to what the true purpose of this gathering is, Mayor Snyder: To go over each one of these items, We have not sat down together on this to see if there are any questions, I would like to know if the Council has any questions on each item or if the Planning Commission or the Parks and Recreation Commission have anything to say about these items. This has to be gone over in detail before any bond issue can be drawn up, if one is, Councilman Krieger: Every time we come to a figure I would like to know what the basis for that figure is; that includes land acquisition, This isn't criticizm; I just want to know what figures we can rely upon and what figures are really conjectural in nature that we have to further explore; Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: In general, Recommendation 19 based on revised figures, would be about $4861000 more, Galster would be about $59000 an acre more, about $159000 an acre, Commissioner Whitcher: Del Norte, Holt and Grandq and Cameron and Hollenbeck are definite appraisals, We can be sure of those, Mayor Snyder: I would like an opinion from the more prices per acre on this land, City Attorney before I set any Councilman Jett: On Del Norte Park, if I recall correctly, the last time I heard anything about acquiring that property we were talking about $8,400, Where did the $84,000 come from? City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: piece of Mr, Heindrick's property, Councilman Jett: We bought two parcels, one strip behind two properties and a It wasn't a very large piece, How can this amount be justified on a piece of R-A property? -5- STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM- Continued City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: Councilman Jett: ORANGEWOOD PARK Councilman Nichols: of views so I am going to support the acquisition I have three reasons for Page Six Harrison Baker provided that estimate. I would like to see that appraisal, I understand the purpose of this meeting is to have a frank exchange give mine, Under no circumstances could I of additional property for Orangewood Park, this, all of which I believe are very sound, (1) Orangewood Park is within one block's walking distance to three public schools, aggregating approximately 65 acres of ground, (2) The Queen of the Valley Hospital, which is developed adjacent to the Orangewood Park, has a long-range master plan which, in my judgement, would be of great value to this City if allowed to be implimented and would be completely blocked if Orangewood Park were expanded, (3) An effort to acquire land for Orangewood Park from the hospital would, in my opinion, not be well received and would raise in this community such dissention that it might prejudice an entire effort to promote a bond issue in the City, Mayor Snyder: I was around when the Queen of the Valley Hospital was in its infancy and there was a verbal comment made at that time by the developers of the hospital that perhaps they could provide some of this land for a park. At that time apparently we didn't take it as a promise but we did take it as a possibility, Obviously since then if they have other plans to use the land, there is nothing binding on them to honor that comment, Councilman Krieger: I would like to ask the Parks and Recreation Commission and the Planning Commission if you have any priority within this recom- mendation. In other words, you have three land additions to existing parks. What order would you put them in if you put them in an order or don't you have any opinion on that question? Chairman Fast: Insofar as the Planning Commission was concerned, we felt under existing parks, land acquisitions, that this was of prime importance going back to the General Plan and working forward, We felt if any sacrifice was to be made it was in the acquisition of new sites as shown in the catagory below, As far as the Planning Commission was concerned we felt the need for a City park and the need for two community parks was a bare minimum necessity for the City of West Covina, Councilman Krieger: Is the community park the most important? Chairman Fast: I don't believe that the Planning Commission in their deliberations actually established priorities among themselves, Anything I would give you here would be my own personal opinion, STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Seven RECREATION AND PARKS CAPITAL 'IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM m Continued Commissioner Kayser: It was felt that the Galster Park was the most important park on very long-range planning but basically the three of them are equally important, There was no one park given any priority over the others with the exception, generally speaking, that in the long-range planning that a 60macre park was most important for the general over-all benefit of the community. Councilman Krieger: If you were given a certain amount of money and I won't tell you how much, which would you buy first? Mr, Gingrich: Del Norte Park, Councilman Krieger: What would be the next choice? Mr, Gingrich: Galster, This is a staff opinion, LAND ACQUISITIONS ® NEW SITES SUNSET 9 FRANCISQUITO Commissioner Whitcher: This would almost be the first choice in that only one of these was left in Recommendation 3 and this is the one, Chairman Fast: I think the longest discussion the joint Commissions had was in the decision of whether to go to many small or few and large parks and it was the concensus of opinion that the trend in West Covina should be to attempt to acquire and facilitate the larger special use parks in contradiction to the neighborhood park approach, Councilman Heath: Somewhere I got the impression that a park located well within the boundaries of the City serves that city best and that a park located on the very extremity of the City serves that city as well as other cities best at the expense of the city in which the park is contained. Do you feel that this park since it is on the border line of the City is a good proposal as a first choice due to the fact that it is quite possible that at least 500 of the use will come from another city? Commissioner Whitcher: The priority was determined by polling each Commission, The majority was for this park, Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: The southwest part of the City is really hurting in park sites and there is not that much land open for sites. There is the possibility of future annexations down there, Councilman Heath: Your point is well taken that there is a lack of parks in that area. As far as expanding in that direction, I think past Councils have frowned on it because the expense is greater than the income received. I will agree there is a need for a park in that area. There are other sites down there I thought might be considered, -7- STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM m Continued Page Eight Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: The only other vacant sites we could find of suitable size were just as unsatisfactory, There is the one up here on Sunset which is about 17 acres but it is too close to the other park in the area and this site would be more centrally located, Councilman Jett: I think the property on Sunset and Francisquito will be more expensive than what this other piece of property will be at 17, 20 acres, CAMERON & AZUSA No discussion, HOLT & GRAND No discussion, CAMERON & HOLLENBECK No discussion, FACILITY IMPROVEMENTS m EXISTING PARKS (ON SITE) CAMERON PARK Councilman Jett: I don't see how we can cut that any, CORTEZ PARK Councilman Krieger: This water system on Cortez Park, did this figure go up? I have a recollection of $20,000 on that, Chairman Johnson: This includes all of the development, Mr, Gingrich: At budget time the question was asked if a portion of it could be done and we said it would be feasible to put the southerly half in at $20,000 and have it designed so that the other portion could be done but the total need is for the whole system, Mayor Snyder: Aren't tennis courts better used in the schools? Mr, Gingrich: We have requests from groups who want to play tennis during the day when the schools are using the tennis courts that we have, I think you will find there is going to be a definite up -trend in tennis in the area, We have them proposed also at Del Norte Park, They were proposed at Del Norte Park and Cortez Park, WE STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM m Continued DEL NORTE PARK No discussion, GALSTER PARK Councilman Jett: Page Nine When do you think you will have the recommendation from the County? Mr, Gingrich: At our last contact with them, which was a week ago.Friday, they said in two weeks they would have their preliminary maps for us, ORANGEWOOD PARK Councilman Krieger: Mr, Gingrich: PALM VIEW PARK No discussion, PICKERING PARK Councilman Krieger: Mr, Gingrich: WALMERADO PARK Councilman Krieger: Mr. Gingrich: for people walking through the park, is along walkways, Councilman Krieger: Mr, Gingrich: highly we get into the parks, Councilman Krieger: What is a multi -purpose slab? That is used for outdoor basketball, roller skating, badminton, multi purposes, Rest rooms, $8,500? The last two we built at Orangewood and Del Norte cost us $15,000 on a contract, What do you mean by security lighting? Security lights mean throughout the park enough to throw light Policemen can see in., This Have we had any difficulty in our parks? This is one of the things the Police Department has recommended Have they had any reported incidents? Mr, Gingrich: Not to my knowledge, ERIN STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Ten RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM Continued FACILITY IMPROVEMENTS - PROPOSED ADDITIONS (ON SITE) DEL NORTE PARK No discussion, ORANGEWOOD PARK Mayor Snyder- Have you had an expressed need for this senior citizen facility in Orangewood Park? Mr, Gingrich: Yes, I think there is interest in.a facility of this type, Mayor Snyder- Is it necessary or advisable to have a separate building for them or can they use another community building? Mr, Gingrich- These people are available every day for their particular types of activities. Normally the senior citizen activities are daytime but they like to develop their own rooms, Chairman Johnson- One of our ideas was to use the house the nuns are using now for the senior citizen facility, GALSTER PARK Councilman Krieger- Does this $500,000 carry forward the $300,000? Mr, Gingrich- No, Councilman Krieger- In the other recommendations you showed what would be deleted when you are cutting it down in the other recommendations, Mr, Gingrich - This is just arbitrary, We have no precise plan here, FACILITY IMPROVEMENTS m PROPOSED NEW PARK'S••(ON'•S'ITE) SUNSET & FRANCISQUITO No discussion, CAMERON & AZUSA No discussion HOLT 6 GRAND No discussion -10 STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Eleven RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM ® Continued CAMERON & HOLLENBECK No discussion. CAMERON PARK No discussion. CORTEZ PARK No discussion. GALSTER PARK No discussion. PALM VIEW PARK No discussion. DEL NORTE PARK No discussion. GALSTER PARK No discussion. OFF®SITE IMPROVEMENTS m EXISTING PARKS OFF -SITE IMPROVEMENTS ® PROPOSED ADDITIONS OFF -SITE IMPROVEMENTS ® PROPOSED NEW PARKS SUNSET & FRANCISQUITO No discussion. CAMERON 6 AZUSA No discussion. STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Twelve RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM m 'Continued HOLT & GRAND No discussion, CAMERON & HOLLENBECK No discussions FACILITY IMPROVEMENTS m PUBLIC AREAS OTHER THAN PARKS EDGEWOOD HIGH SCHOOL Councilman Krieger: What is the situation at Edgewood? Mr,, Gingrich: We have been averaging $20.00 per week on the tennis courts,, We are in the weakest portion of the year with the dampness and moistness at night,, I will have to give you an accurate report on that,, Mayor Snyder: Your first choice is two pools south of the freeways three really,, If you are forced to fall back to two, which schools would they go in? Mr, Gingrich: Edgewood and West Covina High,, Mayor Snyder: Why not Edgewood and South Hills? I don't care but why those two schools? Commissioner Whitcher: We would get it in a more dense area in West Covina High and Edgewood High than we would by going clear out to South Hills High,, Councilman Jett: Mr,, Gingrich: SOUTH HILLS HIGH SCHOOL No discussion; WEST COVINA HIGH SCHOOL No discussion, RIDGE RIDERS Mayor Snyder: I think in terms of sport we would be better off if we stayed with Edgewood and West Covina High,, Don't eliminate Del Norte pool but it is reflected under park improvements,, How long is our lease there? Mr,, Gingrich: Five years,, -12- STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Thirteen RECREATION 6 PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM ®.Continued City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: Mayor Snyder: Mr,, Gingrich: You can't invest -:any public funds unless you can amortize it over the terms of your lease,, Did Parks and Recreation ever consider making this area one big park along with Cortez? I consider it as an annex to Cortez Park right now,, Commissioner Whitcher: We originally played with the idea of taking that entire valley over to Barranca and trying for it, Councilman Jett: This is one area where I thought a year or two ago we should buy this. I still think we should buy it. Chairman Johnson: Mayor Snyder: We.can't; it is R®3 there,, That doesn't make any difference,, Mr, Gingrich: The General Plan indicated that was a location for a three -par golf course down there but the Planning Department did considerable studies down there and some of the land has precise plans approved on it that would preclude that possibility, SUNSET SCHOOL Mayor Snyder: Mr. Gingrich: exercise and we have been very facility. If we had facilities getting sixteen, twenty leagues Mayor Snyder: Chairman Johnson: The lighted soft ball field •wbul'd fulfill what need? The need for the young adults still looking for recreational hampered in the City by lack of this I am sure we would have no trouble in that catagory, Have Edgewood and West Covina High ever considered adding another lighted football field? The last I heard it would stay the way it is now,, Mayor Snyder: Does the City Council feel that the Parks and Recreation has brought them adequate information to now get together and come up with a possible program? Is there additional information you would.like? Councilman Krieger. One additional report that I would personally appreciate, either independently or conjunctively from the Planning and Parks and Recreation Commissions, and that is a priority list, I mean if you had so many dollars to use, where would you use them first. -13- STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Fourteen 'R'ECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PR'OG'RAM -'Continued 0 Chairman Johnson: Our general feeling from the Parks and Recreation Commission is we are not necessarily concerned with dollars, only in acquiring or using facilities that we have, In other words, we have tried to stay completely away from dollars in any sense of the word, Our main objective is to acquire reasonable facilities for the use in the City, The cost and the acquisition we feel is out of our hands, Councilman Krieger: I appreciate where that theoreti- cally is a fine position but if the Parks and Recreation Commission is going to'be of benefit to the Council then the Council should have the benefit of their thinking not }ist in broad policy matters but in specifics because you people deal day -in and day -out in specifics and why we can't have the benefit of specific information is beyond me, I don't see where this is any different from any aspect of our City's life, Mayor Snyder: There is a priority here, How would you have them. -improve on it? Councilman Krieger: If we had 11X11 dollars and that is all we had, do we put a pool in Del Norte Park or do we put five tennis courts.over at Edgewood High School or add two to the three we have? Chairman Fast: I feel we have submitted a priority, I feel it was the concensus of the opinion of the two commissions that met to get a rounded program for the City we were going to have to ask for the citizens to give us $4,187,110. If due to other needs we had also beyond the scope of our meetings that this had to be cut we felt there was a cut to be made but it would shorten our program, reduce its effectiveness down to about three million and then down to about two, In the event we were asking for a bond issue less than two million dollars, then you might as well pick and choose because it is a shotgun approach and personal preference and I don't think you will get anybody to come u.p 4th any recommendations that will be close to unanimous for a figure less than that. Granted in the three million recommendation there might be an isolated case where you would want to trade off one item here for two here, Togo into depth for priority selection would be impossible without any guidance from the Council as to what range of dollars we are shooting for, Commissioner Veronda: Recommendation 4, which and take Recommendation you arrived at, Councilman Krieger: We have one of two alternatives, either come back and give you is across the board further or go vertically 3 and delete from it whatever dollar value the Council is being asked to act range is from two million to four below two million then, gentlemen, use it, The problem I have with it is if this.is the recommendation that upon favorably or otherwise then our million dollars and if we drop use the money where you want to The point is simply this: If City is going to have so much money by virtue of a bond program working backwards then it seems to me only logical to say then for much money we can have this, All I know from this recommendation this that is m14® STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Fifteen RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM m Continued this: For $4,000,000 we can have all the recommendations in 1; for $3000,000 we can have all of Recommendation 2; and for $2,000,000 we can have all of Recommendation 3, This is not further defined, Mayor Snyder: I think they are saying the items in Recommendation 3 are about equal priority, Councilman Krieger: All right, but what if we must go below $2,000,000? Why should we be divorced from the benefit of these people who deal in this subject. as to where the dollars and cents would be applied if you go below $29000,000? Commissioner Whitcher: If the City Council feels in its wisdom that $1,000,000 is appropriate to the situation, I think you can toss it back to the Planning Commission and. Parks and Recreation Commission and we can come up with things we feel within $1,000,000 are necessary, Councilman Krieger: If such a request hypothetically would be made by the Council that your next recommendation might not just be vertically but it may be diagonally, you may have in fact extrapalations from Recommendation 1, Recommendation 2, and Recommendation 3, Commissioner Whitcher: None of us are as wealthy as we would like to be. You are going to have to come up and tell us exactly how much you can spend, Councilman Krieger: You have already put a minimum price tag on what you really need, $290009000, Chairman Johnson: We need to know the next ceiling you are talking about, If your feeling as a City Council is that the $2,000,000-figure is too high we need to know what the next breakdowns will be, Chairman Fast: I would be remiss if I didn't say that there was considerable opinion on the Planning Commission for making no recommendation below that of Recommendation 1 as being the bare minimum that this City must afford to do if we are going to do anything at all, Looking at it from that viewpoint and then backing off by a percentage of 25% and then backing off a further 25% from what we thought was the bare minimum need for this City, it was perhaps the comprehension of those looking at this that anyone would want to go any lower than this from the standpoint of what we are actually getting, If there is something less, give us the figure you want and we will try to work out another set of priorities, Councilman Krieger: Mayor Snyder: center and then to discuss our whole be hammered out because we each have we would accept this recommendation pet projects. What are the mechanics for the complete package? My understanding is we were to have another meeting on the civic program, It is going to have to our own opinion, I would hope as is without fighting for our own i STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Sixteen RECREATION & PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM--' Continued Commissioner Kayser: Orangewood Park facility and if $375000 you can knock off the at this point I think it would objection and if it is a valid Mayor Snyder: Councilman Nichols brought up the one point about being against the the people concur, then you have about total of Recommendation 1 but I think be a good idea to thrash out that one we should know about it, I am not prepared to thrash that one out tonight, Commissioner Whitcher: I don't see how you people can come up with an opinion on this until you have evaluated the civic center, We were led to believe there would be just one bond issue to achieve the two goals, parks and the civic center, Mayor Snyder: I think it should be split but this will be decided later, I do see one other possibility and that is spliting this and putting it on the ballot in increments,, Chairman Johnson: I think this is something we need to discuss a little further down stream and also in conjunction with the attorney, Mayor Snyder: I think after we meet with Neptune and Thomas we should have a meeting to arrive at a decision, Chairman Johnson: Do you have any idea or picture talking about? About when do you of what type think you will of be timing you are thinking about putting this on the ballot as far as the bond issue is concerned? Mayor Snyder: I would like to see it on the ballot next spring but I am not speaking for the entire Council, Councilman Krieger: If we are just being asked to pick a figure out of the air, I suppose anybody's guess is as good as mine, The concensus is that this is not an itemized figure, Mayor Snyder: We all agree there will be variations in the land costs. What further detail or information do you want? Councilman Krieger: Sooner or later it seems to me that this Council is going to have to decide (a) do we want a bond issue? (b) How much is it going to be? and (c) If that bond issue passes, what are we going to use the dollars for? What is wrong 'in figuring out what we are going to use the dollars for in determining whether or not we are. going to have a bond issue and how much it is? We began to question the determination of land cost at the beginning of the evening, It was your position because we were setting a precedent or establishing a valuation, which.I don't agree we were doing, that we should not get into specifics as far as land costs are concerned. How can we possibly say we are not going to get into land costs when they may vary as much as a half -million dollars and determine how much of a bond issue we might possibly need in order to accomplish any part of this program? STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Seventeen RECREATION 6 PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM m Continued Mayor Snyder: You have a total land cost here even on Recommendation 3, If your is appraisals come up for this total land cost more than this, then obviously at that time you are going to have to delete one of these but not until, it seems, Councilman Krieger: Because we are concentrating on large dollars and amounts doesn't change the fact that ultimately you have to get down to specifics in dollars and cents for specific items and I'can't see where we are, in fact, getting down to specifics,in these recommendations as they are presently developed, Mayor Snyder: If the appraisals come up higher than this then that is the point at which you delete some of these items .until you bring the total cost down to what you can spend, Councilman Krieger: If all we were talking about was land acquisition, I would agree with you because then it is easy to cut back to the dollar figure you want to achieve but we are talking about new land acquisition, additions to existing parks, improvements of existing sites, improve- ment of additional acquisitions and then we are talking about off -site improvements, special use facilities, various types of improvements, off -site and away from our existing park facilities. These are all part of this package and they are intertwined and unless we have these figures as they bear one on the other how do we get ourselves a package? Mayor Snyder: You can't go to the people with a bond issue for one section of town. They'have to spread it across the City, Councilman Krieger: And you can't go and say, "I think if you vote for this I can get you this," Mayor Snyder: Your appraisals come before your bond issue goes on the ballot, Councilman Krieger: We can have this information also before we have to make firm cammittments as a Council as to what our priority is going to be,-., If Galster Park is going to come in, at say $600,000 instead of $300,0009 I suggest that perhaps some of us might be concerned with that differential and that if we had known it at the beginning we might have discounted Galster entirely and allocated that portion of the funds to some other part of the program, Mayor Snyder: Is it your suggestion that we have appraisals? Councilman Krieger: It is my suggestion we get dollars and cents as to what we are talking about, -17® STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Eighteen -RECREATION AND PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM ®Continued Commissioner Whitcher: If you will check the figures you will find that 75% of the items in here are accurate within a 5%.margin, I am talking about the items, not the dollars., We have most of it tied down very tight. It is the land values that we are not properly equipped to evaluate, Chairman Fast: The first thing you have to determine is whether or not you want -to do anything., You are not going to know exactly what it is going to cost in Step 2; you are going to have to go through estimates, Once you have evolved that framework you go to step 3 which is Perhaps the appraisal route, closer approximations, I don't feel the Planning Commission or the Parks and Recreation Commission has the tools to go beyond this step that we have gone right now and I don't feel that the City Council is being asked blindly upon the basis of these figures to draft a bond statement for the vote of the people, There are many steps left, Mayor Snyder: Do you feel strongly enough about the land acquisitions in Recommendation 3 to that the Council could safely go for paying for an appraisal at this time? If the appraisal is a great deal different, would you be prepared to drop one of these items out of here? Chairman Fast: As far as the Planning Commission is concerned, I think that is part cF our responsibility. If you get a new direction, we will go along on that, Councilman Krieger: On land acquisitions and land additions it comes close to three-quarters of a million dollars, That is a good percentage of the minimum recommendation, We had a comment that this figure may be off by as much as a half -million dollars, This is almost 100% off, If we have to break into this situation some place then at least let's break into it sensibly and by sensibly let's come as close as we can on an estimate basis as to what we are talking about in land acquisitions because if we }lave that information at least we can weigh in balance the necessity of one as against the other. Somehow we have to have more definite information as to the cost of land acquisitions, Mayor Snyder: appraiser where he doesn't go into enough of an accurate appraisal? Councilman Heath: City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: that if the Council decides maximum because that is the how close you are and some but it will give you a true Is there such a preliminary great detail? a thing as getting estimate from an Does this give you I think so, I don't see how you can do anything else unless you have it. We can go on a basis of a preliminary with the provision to go on the bond issue we go for a only one that will tell you dollarwise of this may have to go into condemnation picture, more so than you have right now, Mayor Snyder: Could you have estimates of the cost of such appraisal for each of these' sites? STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Nineteen RECREATION 6 PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM Continued City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: Yes. Del Norte, Cameron and Hollenbeck is tied town, Holt and Grand is still open, Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: There are court figures on that., City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: You have to have a preliminary estimate and then the final appraisal, Mayor Snyder: After these come back we will have to hand this back to you and tell you what we can spend and you are going to have to cut out things to bring it to these figures, City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: We have engaged two appraisers, Do you want estimates from both appraisers? Mayor Snyder: Are they usually at variance? City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: It depends, Councilman Heath: These appraisals are not for court cases and all we are trying to get is a good guess, I think we should ask each appraiser what they would charge for a preliminary guess, Councilman Nichols: Is this for all of these parcels? City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: On five parcels, Councilman Nichols: I would like to go on record as opposing any investigation for additional property adjacent to the Orangewood Park, Councilman Jett: I would go along with that, Councilman Heath: So would I. Mayor Snyder: I could go on record as opposing some for just as strong grounds, Councilman Nichols: Sir, you may take any attitude you wish and I am entitled to that, City. Manager, Mr, Aiassa: We have Cameron and Hollenbeck; we have Del Norte, The ones still missing are Cameron and Azusa, Holt and Grand, Sunset and Francisquito, Galster, and Orangewood, Do you want to list them by any priority? Councilman Krieger: No, Mayor Snyder: Bring them all back and at the meeting when we have them all we can make a decision on the ones we want to send back for appraisals, m19® STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Twenty 'RECREATION 9 PARKS CAPITAL 'IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM ®'Continued City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: Commissioner Whitcher: Do you want us to re-evaluate the construction costs? I think 750 of the items are accurate within 50, City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: One thing the:Council will have to decide is the wording of the bond proposal because some cities have been trapped where they were specific in detail and amounts and they floated a bond and when the money was available they couldn't buy the amount land with the amount of money, Your bond issue should be general enough to encompass some of the unforeseen increases or values that will be foreseen in acquisition of land or even construction, Councilman Nichols: Three of the major items listed here or possibly four, are swimming pools aggregating some $735,000, Very recently, and I don't know the validity of these matters, the Assistant Superintendent of the West Covina Unified School District showed me a set of plans from a major pool producer indicating that he felt this set of plans would be very adequate for high school use, I don't know the validity of this, This set of plans involved a pool, minimum use of extensive decking, shower facilities, and fencing but it was complete as the pool itself andthe specifics were in detail and it was an offer to build on that basis, The price quoted to the school district was $361,500 and this is so tremendously at variance with the $200,000- figures that are being submitted here for individual swimming pools that I would feel it should be a matter that staff should check into in considerable detail, perhaps even to the extent of communicating with Mr. Eastman of the School District to see what the basis for this difference was, if this is such a lesser Tality pool or if perhaps there are pools that can be built.for less than the $200,000, City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: I think the plans Mr, Eastman probably has were developed by a commercial pool manufacturer who develops pools, Some are predi- cated on a fixed unit price varying on the degree of equipment installed and put into it. These will determine the breakdown of your sub contract as to the type of filters, piping9 et cetera, and I have not looked at his plans in detail, Also, the size will have a variation, Councilman Nichols: It struck me as being a tremendous difference just on the surface, Mayor Snyder: It should be easy to check into that, City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: We can check into it, Mayor Snyder: The City Council should be prepared to make a recommendation on these estimates. We will then turn it back to the Parks and'Recreation if it involves any severe reshuffling of the program, City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: I think another joint meeting would be valuable, m20® . STUDY MEETING 11/2/64 Page Twenty -One RECREATION 8 PARKS CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM ®'Continued 0 Mayor Snyder: Are there any further comments from the Council, the Parks and Recreation Commission or the Planning Commission? I think we want to hammer out some sort of a program, I think the rest of the Council recognizes the need as well as I do, I think this report demonstrates a lot of work and we appreciate this work and hope that we can come up with a definitive answer for you soon, THEATER IN THE ROUND Mayor Snyder: You all read in the paper last week about this proposed theater in the round on the east end of town, I might say that I got a call the day before to appear in Los Angeles at a mews conference not knowing that it was about this theater in the round that was going to be announced, I called the Planning Department and asked -if there were any zoning requests or any variances requested and it was my under- standing there was nothing in this line requested so I appeared at the news conference and this theater in the round was announced by this group as you see in the paper, including Holiday Inn which already has a precise plan and a Howard Johnson Restaurant, which will be the first in California, To.my knowledge they have made no announcement for precise plan yet, Planning Director, Mr, Joseph: They will file by next Monday, City Manager, Mr, Aiassa: We have another interested party, I think it is the Valley Music Association and they are seeking a similar theater in the round on the south side of the freeway. They stated that the theater in the round would be a supplement, You already have a demand of 3,000 capacity in your auditorium and/or exhibit hall and he said an additional thousand would be provided in a similar thing, such as the theater in the round, Councilman Krieger? It appears their corporation is on the basis of owning and operating and being completely within themselves and they have large outside investments, UNEMPLOYMENT OFFICE LOCATION City Manager, Mr, Alassa: We met with Mr, Albert Tieburg and his assistant in Sacramento today, We also were brought up on some of the things they were concerned about and we won't know how effective these things are until we have time to feed back more data to them. They want -to know the center of population by 1980 and the potential growth and the pattern in the area. It is a matter of them coming back with their own definite facts and figures to substantiate the original proposal, the proposal of relocating in West Covina, We will give them all the facts we can, (The study meeting adjourned at 10:45 P.M.) -21-